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rocknice2


Jul 27, 2012, 4:40 AM
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Quantum Physics & Climbing
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If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.


sbaclimber


Jul 27, 2012, 5:02 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.
Actually, common sense pretty much already suggests the same thing.
If I can't see or hear my belayer, then as far as I am concerned it is a 50/50 chance that he/she is still there / paying attention / alive / awake / not being attacked by bees / ....


hyhuu


Jul 27, 2012, 6:29 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.

That's your understanding of quantum physics?


marc801


Jul 27, 2012, 6:40 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.
Quantum theory doesn't mean what you think it means.

Edit: damn it! hyhuu beat me to it. Once again a lesson for all of us: read the whole thread.


(This post was edited by marc801 on Jul 27, 2012, 6:42 AM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 27, 2012, 7:03 AM
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Re: [hyhuu] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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hyhuu wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.

That's your understanding of quantum physics?



this is all anyone needs to know about quantum...stuff.


Partner cracklover


Jul 27, 2012, 8:02 AM
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rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.

A prime example of why posting while stoned seems like maybe it wasn't such a great idea after you come down.

GLaugh


rsd212


Jul 27, 2012, 10:46 AM
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The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer. Only when you fall does the cam come into a definite state of being there or not being there.

As to whether or not your belayer is still there, I guess its for you to decide whether or not they are an intelligent observer...


Kartessa


Jul 27, 2012, 11:36 AM
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cracklover wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.

A prime example of why posting while stoned seems like maybe it wasn't such a great idea after you come down.

GLaugh

Tell me about it


sbaclimber


Jul 27, 2012, 12:21 PM
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Re: [rsd212] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer.
Cool! Proves Scientifically supports my 50/50 assumption! Cool

Edit: see strike-through


(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 27, 2012, 12:23 PM)


ninepointeight


Jul 27, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Fortunately for those who are leading on gear, what applies to reality at scales approaching Planck length does not apply in our full size world. Just because a single electron may both exist and not exist until observed does not mean your cam is and isn't there when you can't see it.

That's just something Secretist zealots try to sell you as part of 'String Theory'.


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Jul 27, 2012, 12:46 PM)


Partner cracklover


Jul 27, 2012, 1:02 PM
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Re: [ninepointeight] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
Fortunately for those who are leading on gear, what applies to reality at scales approaching Planck length does not apply in our full size world. Just because a single electron may both exist and not exist until observed does not mean your cam is and isn't there when you can't see it.

Tell that to poor Schrodinger's cat. Your assurances don't make her feel better about being both dead and alive. And, um, I guess they also do.

GWink


veganclimber


Jul 27, 2012, 2:30 PM
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sbaclimber


Jul 27, 2012, 2:43 PM
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veganclimber wrote:
sbaclimber wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.
Actually, common sense pretty much already suggests the same thing.
If I can't see or hear my belayer, then as far as I am concerned it is a 50/50 chance that he/she is still there / paying attention / alive / awake / not being attacked by bees / ....

I'd recommend a new belayer.
Wouldn't help. Wink
It has nothing to do with the belayer (or cam), but rather my belief in the "invisible".
Granted, I have had belayers in the past where it was 50/50 even when I could see them...Pirate


dan2see


Jul 27, 2012, 7:17 PM
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rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer. Only when you fall does the cam come into a definite state of being there or not being there.

As to whether or not your belayer is still there, I guess its for you to decide whether or not they are an intelligent observer...

This is the correct interpretation of the Copenhagen interpretation.

You could also plan your route based on the "Many Worlds" interpretation of QM. So instead of the cam's problematic there/not-there uncertainty, you know that of all the outcomes of your fall, you survived at least one of them.


rocknice2


Jul 28, 2012, 8:45 AM
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rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer. Only when you fall does the cam come into a definite state of being there or not being there.

As to whether or not your belayer is still there, I guess its for you to decide whether or not they are an intelligent observer...

So it may NOT be there once I fall.


Marylandclimber


Jul 28, 2012, 9:12 AM
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What if neither your belayer or yourself can see Africa, is it still there?


edge


Jul 28, 2012, 11:14 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Quantum Physics & Climbing [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
If your leading at a remote crag and out of site from your belayer, are they still there?
I guess the fact that the belayer can perceive themselves then they exist and remain at the belay. I think therefore I am.

What if a cam is placed into a crack and neither you nor your belayer can see it, is it still there?

Quantum theory suggests that it may not be there.

Do you think that an experiment where I hit the "Delete Thread" button would provide additional food for thought? Would these post still exist, or not?

You know, purely in the interest of science.


(This post was edited by edge on Jul 28, 2012, 11:16 AM)


rocknice2


Jul 28, 2012, 4:44 PM
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LOL
Now your just playing God and your threatening to delete a couple of dimensions to prove a point.

The proper experiment would be to see if an intelligent observer clicks on the thread and it's not there. Sans interference from God of coarse.
Wink


marc801


Jul 28, 2012, 6:19 PM
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rocknice2 wrote:
LOL
Now your just playing God and your threatening to delete a couple of dimensions to prove a point.

The proper experiment would be to see if an intelligent observer clicks on the thread and it's not there. Sans interference from God of coarse.
Wink
How come all the recent bizarre posts seem to be originating in Quebec?
I mean, some of my best friends are Candadandian, but still.....


blondgecko
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Jul 29, 2012, 2:58 AM
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rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer.

Fixed that for you. Another way of putting it is that a quantum system is only defined to other systems that interact with it. Say an atom is in complete isolation from its surroundings. Its state is then indeterminate with respect to the rest of the universe. Then a photon interacts with it. The states of the photon and the atom at the time of interaction then become determined with respect to each other, but are still undetermined with respect to everything else.

If that photon then goes on to interact with you, you then become part of the expanding collapsed wave function - determined with respect to each other, but indeterminate with respect to everything you haven't yet (directly or indirectly) interacted with.

In reality, of course, we and every other object are constantly interacting with our environment, via atomic collisions and absorption/emission of photons in the untold trillions per second. It takes quite heroic measures to isolate even a single atom to sufficient extent to keep its state uncollapsed for a few seconds.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with the Copenhagen interpretation. Personally I think the word "observed" was really ill-founded - all it really says is that a wavefunction is indeterminate to you until something that it has interacted with goes on to interact (at however many removes) with you.


sungam


Jul 29, 2012, 3:23 AM
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rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation
Not that it makes his claim any less incorrect, but I think he was talking about quantum theories that are still taken seriously.


Kartessa


Jul 30, 2012, 9:02 AM
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blondgecko wrote:
rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't say the cam may not be there when not observed, it says the cam is both there and not there, existing in all possible states simultaneously until its wave function is collapsed by an intelligent observer.

Fixed that for you. Another way of putting it is that a quantum system is only defined to other systems that interact with it. Say an atom is in complete isolation from its surroundings. Its state is then indeterminate with respect to the rest of the universe. Then a photon interacts with it. The states of the photon and the atom at the time of interaction then become determined with respect to each other, but are still undetermined with respect to everything else.

If that photon then goes on to interact with you, you then become part of the expanding collapsed wave function - determined with respect to each other, but indeterminate with respect to everything you haven't yet (directly or indirectly) interacted with.

In reality, of course, we and every other object are constantly interacting with our environment, via atomic collisions and absorption/emission of photons in the untold trillions per second. It takes quite heroic measures to isolate even a single atom to sufficient extent to keep its state uncollapsed for a few seconds.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with the Copenhagen interpretation. Personally I think the word "observed" was really ill-founded - all it really says is that a wavefunction is indeterminate to you until something that it has interacted with goes on to interact (at however many removes) with you.




dynosore


Jul 30, 2012, 9:33 AM
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Heisenberg is out for a drive when he's stopped by a traffic cop. The cop asks, "Do you know how fast you were going?" Heisenberg proclaims, "No idea, but I know precisely where I am."


rsd212


Jul 30, 2012, 11:01 AM
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sungam wrote:
rsd212 wrote:
The Copenhagen interpretation
Not that it makes his claim any less incorrect, but I think he was talking about quantum theories that are still taken seriously.

I made an assumption from the OP's question that we were dealing with that era's thought experiments, so it seemed appropriate.


CharlieP


Jul 30, 2012, 12:43 PM
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assume the situation is totaly lost because everything outside the moment is in the past and can no longer be relied onCool

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