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Kartessa


Aug 1, 2012, 6:27 AM
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Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens?
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/...zens/article4451256/


chadnsc


Aug 1, 2012, 8:56 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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Yeah the US government has the right and ability to kill it's citizens.

Mainly because as a US citizen we don't have rights, we have privileges. They're not rights if someone can take them away.


Kartessa


Aug 1, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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So how far can you take this "removal of privileges"?

Kill without trial or opportunity to defend... Kinda goes against your constitution doesn't it?

At what point does this become morally reprehensible? I mean, a crime is a crime, no? Can you send drones into Mexico to kill cartel members who are American citizens?

How about to the Caribbean to catch tax evaders?

Just curious.


chadnsc


Aug 1, 2012, 9:18 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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Well that's just it, if we have 'privileges' then the government can go as far as they want and the public lets them.

Morals and criminality of an action really play no part in the decision making process of a government.

A government can and will do whatever they want, whenever they want as long as it serves the politicians interests and the resulting fallout isn't greater than the benefits.

It's the sad truth of governments throughout the world.

Edit to add:
Just my opinion.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Aug 1, 2012, 9:33 AM)


saint_john


Aug 1, 2012, 9:43 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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US citizens, Iraqi citizens, Afghan citizens, Vietnamese citizens, Korean citizens...
The US can justify killing whoever it wants.


chadnsc


Aug 1, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [saint_john] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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saint_john wrote:
US citizens, Iraqi citizens, Afghan citizens, Vietnamese citizens, Korean citizens...
The US goverments can justify killing whoever it wants.

We (the U.S.) just have more high tech stuff to do it.


Partner rrrADAM


Aug 1, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
saint_john wrote:
US citizens, Iraqi citizens, Afghan citizens, Vietnamese citizens, Korean citizens...
The US goverments can justify killing whoever it wants.

We (the U.S.) just have more high tech stuff to do it.

And think more highly of ourselves (morals and ethics) when we do it...
(Read: Self Righteous)

Bad Religion wrote:
I don't need to be a global citizen
'Cause I'm blessed by nationality
I'm a member of a growing populace
We enforce our popularity

There are things that seem to pull us under and
There are things that drag us down
But there's a power and a vital presence
That's lurking all around

We've got the American Jesus
See him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
He helped build the president's estate

I feel sorry for the earth's population
'Cause so few live in the U.S.A.
At least the foreigners can copy our morality
They can visit but they cannot stay

Only precious few can garner the prosperity
It makes us walk with renewed confidence
We've got a place to go when we die
And the architect resides right here

We've got the American Jesus
Bolstering national faith
We've got the American Jesus
Overwhelming millions every day

He's the farmers barren fields
(In God)
The force the army wields
(We trust)
The expression on the faces of the starving millions
(Because he's one of us)

The power of the damned
(Break down)
The fuel that drives the Klan
(Cave in)
He's the motive and the conscience of the murderer
(He can redeem your sin)

He's the preacher on TV
(Strong heart)
The false sincerity
(Clear mind)
The form letter that's written by the big computers
(And infinitely kind)

The nuclear bombs
(You lose)
The kids with no moms
(We win)
And I'm fearful that he's inside me
(He is our champion)

Yeah, we've got the American Jesus
See him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
Exercising his authority

We've got the American Jesus
Bolstering National faith
We've got the American Jesus
Overwhelming millions every day

One nation under God
One nation under God
One nation under God


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Aug 1, 2012, 10:33 AM)


saint_john


Aug 1, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Re: [rrrADAM] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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rrrADAM wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
saint_john wrote:
US citizens, Iraqi citizens, Afghan citizens, Vietnamese citizens, Korean citizens...
The US goverments can justify killing whoever it wants.

We (the U.S.) just have more high tech stuff to do it.

And think more highly of ourselves (morals and ethics) when we do it...
(Read: Self Righteous)

Bad Religion wrote:
I don't need to be a global citizen
'Cause I'm blessed by nationality
I'm a member of a growing populace
We enforce our popularity

There are things that seem to pull us under and
There are things that drag us down
But there's a power and a vital presence
That's lurking all around

We've got the American Jesus
See him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
He helped build the president's estate

I feel sorry for the earth's population
'Cause so few live in the U.S.A.
At least the foreigners can copy our morality
They can visit but they cannot stay

Only precious few can garner the prosperity
It makes us walk with renewed confidence
We've got a place to go when we die
And the architect resides right here

We've got the American Jesus
Bolstering national faith
We've got the American Jesus
Overwhelming millions every day

He's the farmers barren fields
(In God)
The force the army wields
(We trust)
The expression on the faces of the starving millions
(Because he's one of us)

The power of the damned
(Break down)
The fuel that drives the Klan
(Cave in)
He's the motive and the conscience of the murderer
(He can redeem your sin)

He's the preacher on TV
(Strong heart)
The false sincerity
(Clear mind)
The form letter that's written by the big computers
(And infinitely kind)

The nuclear bombs
(You lose)
The kids with no moms
(We win)
And I'm fearful that he's inside me
(He is our champion)

Yeah, we've got the American Jesus
See him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
Exercising his authority

We've got the American Jesus
Bolstering National faith
We've got the American Jesus
Overwhelming millions every day

One nation under God
One nation under God
One nation under God

We gots Jeebus on our side, and Jeebus don't like brown folks.


Partner rrrADAM


Aug 1, 2012, 12:05 PM
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Re: [saint_john] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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That's a very bold statement. Tongue


Partner cracklover


Aug 1, 2012, 1:56 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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At the moment, yes. But it stinks. Worst thing the Obama administration has done.

GO


chadnsc


Aug 1, 2012, 2:28 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
At the moment, yes. But it stinks. Worst thing the Obama administration has done.

GO


This isn't something limited to the current administration. Our government has been doing this type of stuff for a long time.


Partner cracklover


Aug 1, 2012, 2:55 PM
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chadnsc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
At the moment, yes. But it stinks. Worst thing the Obama administration has done.

GO


This isn't something limited to the current administration. Our government has been doing this type of stuff for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, I support the Obama administration, and think they've done a lot of great stuff. But the fact that others have done it before you doesn't mean shit in my book, and they don't get a pass on this from me.

GO


chadnsc


Aug 1, 2012, 3:08 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
At the moment, yes. But it stinks. Worst thing the Obama administration has done.

GO


This isn't something limited to the current administration. Our government has been doing this type of stuff for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, I support the Obama administration, and think they've done a lot of great stuff. But the fact that others have done it before you doesn't mean shit in my book, and they don't get a pass on this from me.

GO

I wasn't implying that this administration actions should be accepted because past administrations have done it. Quite the opposite in fact.

Like I posted earlier, governments will continue to do whatever they want as long as it's in their own interests and the gains outweigh the fallout.

The Obama administration wasn't the first to do so and they won't be the last. Just the way it is.


notapplicable


Aug 1, 2012, 8:03 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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Yes.

Next question.


guangzhou


Aug 2, 2012, 4:20 AM
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Imminent threat of violent attack against our country, even if planned by that countries citizen, then yes, the government has the responsibility to act in the countries best interest and to protect itís citizens.

In this case, he was a known senior operator within Al Qaeda. I would not want to be a president making this decision; actually, I donít want to be president under any circumstances.

As for governments doing what is best for their country, that the whole point isn't it. Keeping your country alive and active to the best of the your ability. Sometimes the issues are resolved via diplomacy, sometimes via deployments. I would be more worried about a government that wasnít looking out for its national interest.

Personally I don't like war, I hate that humans kill each other, but in today's world it's a reality. If killing one individual prevents the killing of hundreds or thousands, the issue becomes greyer for me.

Before someone goes there, no, I don't believe that all Muslim are evil and want America or the west dead. I work and live with Muslim everyday; my climbing partners are often Muslim and belaying me. I also donít believe the American Government is hunting people, Americans or otherwise, just for sport.

America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

If you choose to stay, help make it a better place by providing real solutions instead of complaints about how things are handled. Complaining isnít a solution.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Aug 2, 2012, 4:39 AM)


Partner cracklover


Aug 2, 2012, 7:21 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

If you choose to stay, help make it a better place by providing real solutions instead of complaints about how things are handled. Complaining isnít a solution.

Who here is bashing America? Or are you just making shit up again? Anyway, I gotta say, the irony is pretty thick coming from an expat who moved, if I understand it correctly, not to follow your conscience, but to follow the $$$.

GO


Kartessa


Aug 2, 2012, 7:32 AM
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cracklover wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

If you choose to stay, help make it a better place by providing real solutions instead of complaints about how things are handled. Complaining isnít a solution.

Who here is bashing America? Or are you just making shit up again? Anyway, I gotta say, the irony is pretty thick coming from an expat who moved, if I understand it correctly, not to follow your conscience, but to follow the $$$.

GO

Thank God I'm French Canadian.

Can hate my government and live in the country at the same time.

I hate the French government too, but not as much as I hate the French people for voting for Hollande.


Kartessa


Aug 2, 2012, 7:41 AM
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But I think the better question would be
- "Do you think this is acceptable?"
- "What does it say about your country if it elects to do this?"
- "Where should the line be drawn? What kind of criminals/fugitives deserve to be gunned down without trial and who has the right to one?"


chadnsc


Aug 2, 2012, 7:46 AM
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guangzhou wrote:

America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

The American government is actually rather great. Like I've been saying throughout this thread ANY government will do whatever it can to further itself as long as the benefit outweighs the fallout.

This isn't limited to American government. It's the nature of a governed society. As such the members of such a society need to hold their elected officials accountable for their actions and play an active role in goernment through open discourse (some may say complaining), debate, and participating in elections.


curt


Aug 2, 2012, 8:20 AM
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cracklover wrote:
At the moment, yes. But it stinks. Worst thing the Obama administration has done.

Not in my opinion. Failure to have a coherent energy policy and caving in on the public option for healthcare were far worse--at least in terms of greater negative impact to the country.

Curt


chadnsc


Aug 2, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Kartessa wrote:
But I think the better question would be
- "Do you think this is acceptable?"
- "What does it say about your country if it elects to do this?"
- "Where should the line be drawn? What kind of criminals/fugitives deserve to be gunned down without trial and who has the right to one?"

1. In certain circumstances I thinks it's acceptable.

2. Every elected 'president' of every country has done this to some extent so to me this says that as a people we prefer to not know about it but reap the 'rewards' of it being done.

3. This is a slippery slope. If you're an enemy combatant or commander then you can be killed without trial as is war. What defines an enemy combatant though? Sure it's easy to define when someone's shooting at you but what about the guy who harbors the enemy, provides them weapons, give them aid in the form of food / water? I think that's where the hard decisions are and that's where administrations and leaders need look at things on a case by case basis and make and educated decision.


guangzhou


Aug 2, 2012, 9:17 PM
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cracklover wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

If you choose to stay, help make it a better place by providing real solutions instead of complaints about how things are handled. Complaining isnít a solution.

Who here is bashing America? Or are you just making shit up again? Anyway, I gotta say, the irony is pretty thick coming from an expat who moved, if I understand it correctly, not to follow your conscience, but to follow the $$$.

GO

America bashing, I felt it in this thread for sure. I think that's one of the great things about America, you can bash the government and the authorities will leave you alone. Actually, the judicial system will protect your freedom to speak your mind no matter how ill informed your personal opinion is. Itís one of our rights.

Irony, yeah, I'm an ex-pat living in Asia. Chasing $$, not sure a schoolteacher will ever get rich, but yes, I wanted my money to go a bit further so I could enjoy my life instead of struggling to barely make ends meet every month. I wanted to spend my school vacation climbing instead of working odds jobs.

I left America because I was offered a teaching job and I didn't like what public education was offering as pay, what it providing our students or where it was headed. Even being active locally, asking for change wasn't going to work, politician control education and they blame educators for decision made by politicians. Most people are to busy working to get involved in making changes. When they are not working, they are complaining those politicians arenít doing what they should.

Living overseas as a teacher also meant I could see more of the world. I can stretch my dollar further and climb internationally. People dream of climbing more and seeing more areas, I decided to make it happen instead of complaining about other who had more than me and could do more because of it. If you think it sucks that I work to do more of what I love, so be it. Glad you have an opinion and shared it; I donít agree. Oh my god, Eman found a way to climb more and not increase is workload. That is so wrong of him.

I don't think I'll get rich owning a climbing gym either, but I do love going in to work and being my own boss. Once the business is a bit better off, I'll have more time to travel in the region, the states, and Europe to climb more areas. Life is cheap here; Iíve always lived fairly frugally anyways and will continue to do so. Chances are my wife and I will sell the gym and move to Lake Tahoe or Southern France one day. (Good climbing and skiing)

Yes, I want out of the rat race, I want more time to climb and play and travel. The only way to do that is to have money in the bank. I see nothing wrong with wanting to be comfortable and free roam. I tried the ďdirtbagĒ life style. Living out of my car eating ramen, rice, and potatoes wasnít my idea of the perfect life. To many places I wanted to climb that I couldnít drive to.

Chasing money, I see nothing wrong with it, itís not for me. I tend to chase the sun and cliffs, for now I am chasing those in Asia. Would I like to have more money, sure, but only because of what it offers, more opportunities to go climbing at new places. Yes, climbing really is one of the most important thing in my life. My wife is my main climbing partner and loves it as much as I do. Add the fact that we both love to visit other countries while climbing and we make great partners.

Love America, yes I do. More than most Americans do actually. (my opinion) I did a few years in the service, work in consulate schools overseas, and changed to American Citizenship. I decided to become an American; I wasnít born into it. Some will mock that, so be it, but I do believe America is the greatest country in the world. Living in several other countries and having visited even more, I believe it more today than ever. Is America perfect? No, but Ö..

I do believe people should challenge what their government is doing, but I also see a big difference between complaining and making recommendation on how to improve things.

Not aimed at cracklover specifically:

The amount of time people spent posting on this site could be used to write letters to various politicians, taking part in rallies, and actually getting involved in the change people want to see.

I'm not as active as I could be, I send one letter a week to various government representative about education and what I believe should happen. Usually I photocopy a supporting article or document from one of the various educational magazines I read for them to read. I realize that 90% end up in the trash, but if one letter makes a tiny change in how some politician sees education, I'll have achieved something.

What are you actively doing to make change happen besides posting on RC.com, a site I doubt the decision makers are reading.


tready


Aug 2, 2012, 9:54 PM
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guangzhou wrote:

America bashing, I felt it in this thread for sure. I think that's one of the great things about America, you can bash the government and the authorities will leave you alone. Actually, the judicial system will protect your freedom to speak your mind no matter how ill informed your personal opinion is. Itís one of our rights.

Amen man. It took living in an area where that wasn't the case to fully understand how great that is.


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Aug 3, 2012, 9:10 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
America bashing, here is an idea, if the American government is so horrible to you the American citizen, why not just leave the country and change your citizenship.
Like they said in the 60s or 70s, "love it or leave it."

If you choose to stay, help make it a better place by providing real solutions instead of complaints about how things are handled. Complaining isnít a solution.

Who here is bashing America? Or are you just making shit up again? Anyway, I gotta say, the irony is pretty thick coming from an expat who moved, if I understand it correctly, not to follow your conscience, but to follow the $$$.

GO

America bashing, I felt it in this thread for sure. I think that's one of the great things about America, you can bash the government and the authorities will leave you alone. Actually, the judicial system will protect your freedom to speak your mind no matter how ill informed your personal opinion is. Itís one of our rights.

Irony, yeah, I'm an ex-pat living in Asia. Chasing $$, not sure a schoolteacher will ever get rich, but yes, I wanted my money to go a bit further so I could enjoy my life instead of struggling to barely make ends meet every month. I wanted to spend my school vacation climbing instead of working odds jobs.

I left America because I was offered a teaching job and I didn't like what public education was offering as pay, what it providing our students or where it was headed. Even being active locally, asking for change wasn't going to work, politician control education and they blame educators for decision made by politicians. Most people are to busy working to get involved in making changes. When they are not working, they are complaining those politicians arenít doing what they should.

Living overseas as a teacher also meant I could see more of the world. I can stretch my dollar further and climb internationally. People dream of climbing more and seeing more areas, I decided to make it happen instead of complaining about other who had more than me and could do more because of it. If you think it sucks that I work to do more of what I love, so be it. Glad you have an opinion and shared it; I donít agree. Oh my god, Eman found a way to climb more and not increase is workload. That is so wrong of him.

I don't think I'll get rich owning a climbing gym either, but I do love going in to work and being my own boss. Once the business is a bit better off, I'll have more time to travel in the region, the states, and Europe to climb more areas. Life is cheap here; Iíve always lived fairly frugally anyways and will continue to do so. Chances are my wife and I will sell the gym and move to Lake Tahoe or Southern France one day. (Good climbing and skiing)

Yes, I want out of the rat race, I want more time to climb and play and travel. The only way to do that is to have money in the bank. I see nothing wrong with wanting to be comfortable and free roam. I tried the ďdirtbagĒ life style. Living out of my car eating ramen, rice, and potatoes wasnít my idea of the perfect life. To many places I wanted to climb that I couldnít drive to.

Chasing money, I see nothing wrong with it, itís not for me. I tend to chase the sun and cliffs, for now I am chasing those in Asia. Would I like to have more money, sure, but only because of what it offers, more opportunities to go climbing at new places. Yes, climbing really is one of the most important thing in my life. My wife is my main climbing partner and loves it as much as I do. Add the fact that we both love to visit other countries while climbing and we make great partners.

Love America, yes I do. More than most Americans do actually. (my opinion) I did a few years in the service, work in consulate schools overseas, and changed to American Citizenship. I decided to become an American; I wasnít born into it. Some will mock that, so be it, but I do believe America is the greatest country in the world. Living in several other countries and having visited even more, I believe it more today than ever. Is America perfect? No, but Ö..

I do believe people should challenge what their government is doing, but I also see a big difference between complaining and making recommendation on how to improve things.

Not aimed at cracklover specifically:

The amount of time people spent posting on this site could be used to write letters to various politicians, taking part in rallies, and actually getting involved in the change people want to see.

I'm not as active as I could be, I send one letter a week to various government representative about education and what I believe should happen. Usually I photocopy a supporting article or document from one of the various educational magazines I read for them to read. I realize that 90% end up in the trash, but if one letter makes a tiny change in how some politician sees education, I'll have achieved something.

What are you actively doing to make change happen besides posting on RC.com, a site I doubt the decision makers are reading.

Wow... just wow. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

And, since you seem to care so much, yeah, I am politically involved. I'm a volunteer leader with a local grassroots organization.

GO


petsfed


Aug 3, 2012, 11:58 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Does the US Government have the right to kill it's own citizens? [In reply to]
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There's a pretty common (and unwarranted) convolution of right and obligation in the US, so its kind of a loaded question.

I think that, yes, every government has this "right", its just that the most oppressive regimes habitually abuse this right. It is indeed important that a government be granted this right by the people so that the government can act most completely in the people's best interests. That said, any government that chooses to kill its own citizens without considerable introspection and investigation is acting outside of its mandate.

Personally, I find the targeted killing to be the most distasteful of the many policies Obama inherited from Bush but did not take steps to end. We'd go a long ways towards ending the War on Terror if we spent less time raining death from above and more time addressing the circumstances that drive people towards violent ideologies. The religion is not the problem, its the hopelessness that makes the crazy guy spewing hate sound reasonable.

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