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ninepointeight


Aug 9, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Using Tag Lines
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I'd like to pick up a 6mm tag line for long raps. What's the general consensus for joining the two vastly difference sized ropes? In this circumstance, it would be a 10.5 and a 6mm.

I think I'd feel safest tying an eight on a bight near the end of the fatty and clipping that to the same rope on the other side of the anchor to prevent the knot pulling through. Then there would be two knots to potentially hang up on something though...

What knot do you use? Do you carry a fatter tag line?


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Aug 9, 2012, 11:33 AM)


majid_sabet


Aug 9, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Re: [ninepointeight] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
I'd like to pick up a 6mm tag line for long raps. What's the general consensus for joining the two vastly difference sized ropes? In this circumstance, it would be a 10.5 and a 6mm.

I think I'd feel safest tying an eight on a bight near the end of the fatty and clipping that to the same rope on the other side of the anchor to prevent the knot pulling through. Then there would be two knots to potentially hang up on something though...

What knot do you use? Do you carry a fatter tag line?

if you are only using it to pull rope on long rap then its ok but i rather go with 7mm cause you could rap on it on emergency situation


ninepointeight


Aug 9, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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In an emergency, couldn't you rap the 6mm with a super-munter? Worth the extra .7 lbs?


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Aug 9, 2012, 11:51 AM)


Kartessa


Aug 9, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Re: [ninepointeight] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
In an emergency, couldn't you rap the 6mm with a super-munter? Worth the extra .7 lbs?

Is it worth having the greater security and ease of use in an emergency?


csproul


Aug 9, 2012, 12:19 PM
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Re: [ninepointeight] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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Two things to keep in mind about this system.

1st, the thinner the cord, the harder it is to pull. Not sure if 1mm makes that big a difference or not.

2nd this system sucks (loop-knot clipped with a biner) if there are a lot of features to get hung up on. I've come across a couple parties at places like Red Rocks where the biner or knot got hung up on a chickenhead and the pull line was hopelessly stuck. Now you're stuck with just the skinny pull-line if you've already pulled the lead-line out of reach. If the climbing is less featured or steep, then you're probably good to go.


ninepointeight


Aug 9, 2012, 12:23 PM
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Re: [csproul] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
2nd this system sucks (loop-knot clipped with a biner) if there are a lot of features to get hung up on. I've come across a couple parties at places like Red Rocks where the biner or knot got hung up on a chickenhead and the pull line was hopelessly stuck

That's sorta what I'm getting at. I'd only be willing to use the system I described somewhere that the two rope rap got me to the ground in one shot, lest I got my self hopelessly benighted.

Is there a better solution, short of full on twin/doubles?


healyje


Aug 9, 2012, 1:28 PM
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This is decidedly NOT a beginners topic and should be moved from this forum.


majid_sabet


Aug 9, 2012, 2:47 PM
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ninepointeight wrote:
In an emergency, couldn't you rap the 6mm with a super-munter? Worth the extra .7 lbs?


years back I had a pissing-match event in RC with another RC member and I rap on 4 mm. Basically it was 4 strand of cords out of a 11 mm rope tied together with warped in to a biner after an ACT and i had to pass the knot so technically you can even go below 6mm but I would not recommend it to every one.


billl7


Aug 9, 2012, 3:08 PM
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I agree with Joseph. There are different variations on how to do it but those including the one below are not beginner systems. In fact, both folks involved should be experienced in rigging systems and should have a common understanding of the system being used.

And there are a lot of experienced folks who decide that a tag line adds what is simply too much risk to use it. Maybe all the details below will drive this home.

ninepointeight wrote:
What's the general consensus for joining the two vastly difference sized ropes? In this circumstance, it would be a 10.5 and a 6mm.

Those diameters are what I have used for years.

I join them with the European Death Knot (overhand with both strands treated as one strand):

* The primary failure mode in this application is the knot capsizes towards the tails. So I tie it such that the skinny line has to roll over the fat line if it were to capsize.
* It must be dressed well.
* Tighten it by pulling hard on each individual strand coming out of the knot.
* I tie a backup knot in the tails by wrapping the skinny around the fat and so form a half a double fishermans.
* When it is tied, my tails are about 18 inches long.
* The EDK glides really well over rock edges.

ninepointeight wrote:
I think I'd feel safest tying an eight on a bight near the end of the fatty and clipping that to the same rope on the other side of the anchor to prevent the knot pulling through.

Indeed, when rigged to pull the tag line, there is a real danger of the knot pulling through the anchor and so the ends to become rapidly uneven. Here's what I do as an alternative to the method you mention (assume: the fat rope has been tossed after being threaded through the anchor and tied to the tag line and secured; tag line has not been tossed; also assume just two folks are rapping; the last person raps with a device made to handle two-stranded rap):

* Before the first person raps, fix the fat line to the anchor (i.e., figure 8 on a bite clipped to the anchor). Also, fix the free end of the tag line to the first person - we lock it to the load-bearing belay loop.

* While the first raps on the fat line, the second person pays out the tag line - can do this through a munter as a last-chance backup. Doing this avoids having to deal with tangles in the tag line while on rappel - thinner ropes tangle more easily!

* When the first person is down and off rappel, the rest of the tag line is paid out and the first person resecures tag line (so slack is not in play) - in case knot pulls through during second person's rap.

* Second person unfixes the fat line - so now rigged for regular double-rope rap. Second person raps on both strands in the usual way.

* Pull the ropes by pulling the tag line. You will usually get ahold of the knot before the fat line falls free.

Multiple raps this way can get time consuming - it is not a system where the pulled tag line can simply be concurrently threaded through the next anchor; that would put the knot on the "wrong side" of the anchor for the next rap - unless other steps are taken or unless the knot can simply be pulled through to the other side of the anchor!

Some rap stations have skinny holes for threading (e.g., some chain links) - inspection might indicate there is no danger of the knot pulling through ... a judgment call so make sure there is no doubt of it pulling through should you decide to not have the first tie off the tag line below.

Often, when the rope lays over an edge, the last person to rap over the edge will then move the knot over the edge before continuing on rappel. This is unlikely to work with the above system as the knot will probably be pulled right back up to the anchor as the last person continues to rappel - I have seen this happen.

Skinny lines can be really really hard to pull (yes, 7mm will be easier to pull than 6mm but heavier to carry too). It is extra extra important to not allow the two strands to spiral around each other before actually pulling, to not have residual coils in the fat line (e.g., a new rope improperly uncoiled) such that it will tend to uncoil during the pull and thereby cause the tails to wind around the rope during the pull and so tend to catch on edges.

Bill L


redlude97


Aug 9, 2012, 3:43 PM
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billl7 wrote:
I join them with the European Death Knot (overhand with both strands treated as one strand):

* The primary failure mode in this application is the knot capsizes towards the tails. So I tie it such that the skinny line has to roll over the fat line if it were to capsize.
* It must be dressed well.
* Tighten it by pulling hard on each individual strand coming out of the knot.
* I tie a backup knot in the tails by wrapping the skinny around the fat and so form a half a double fishermans.
* When it is tied, my tails are about 18 inches long.
Thats a good idea, does anyone know if it is substantially different from tying a overhand butted up against the EDK in the small strand such as pictured below?



herites


Aug 9, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Re: [ninepointeight] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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Just a quick question: why don't you buy half ropes, or twins if you and your belayer doesn't want to manage halves (or a double rated rope).


billl7


Aug 9, 2012, 4:30 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Using Tag Lines [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
billl7 wrote:
I join them with the European Death Knot (overhand with both strands treated as one strand):

* The primary failure mode in this application is the knot capsizes towards the tails. So I tie it such that the skinny line has to roll over the fat line if it were to capsize.
* It must be dressed well.
* Tighten it by pulling hard on each individual strand coming out of the knot.
* I tie a backup knot in the tails by wrapping the skinny around the fat and so form a half a double fishermans.
* When it is tied, my tails are about 18 inches long.
Thats a good idea, does anyone know if it is substantially different from tying a overhand butted up against the EDK in the small strand such as pictured below?
I can't say I have thoroughly considerd all the options of a backup knot to the EDK and weighed the pros and cons of each way. So this is a good question.

The reason I chose the way in bold was that it tends to isolate slack in the skinny's tail from migrating through both knots. Such migration of the skinny tail would allow the skinny line to more readily rollover the fat line. That and really pre-tightening the EDK should help prevent migration.

But if the EDK capsizes, I'm not sure the way in bold backs things up in a "best practices" kind of way. Maybe better would be to form a barrel knot using the two strands as one strand in order to back up the EDK? Or would that defeat the purpose of using an EDK by concentrating enough weight to hinder how the EDK glides over edges? Don't know.

I have noticed with the double-stranded EDK rather loosely tied that a 6mm tag line is frighteningly willing to simply snake its way completely out of the EDK formed by the fat line - one hardly has to pull much at all on the tag line.


ninepointeight


Aug 9, 2012, 8:14 PM
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herites wrote:
Just a quick question: why don't you buy half ropes, or twins if you and your belayer doesn't want to manage halves (or a double rated rope).

I've only climbed with halves and didn't like them. Twins could be good option.


shimanilami


Aug 9, 2012, 10:13 PM
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IMO, it's not worth the hassle. Accessory cords are prone to tangling, there is a greater chance of operator error, and the weight savings is minimal. Seriously, just get yourself a half rope and be glad for it.

One advantage of a half rope, by the way, is that you can simul-rap on it.


herites


Aug 10, 2012, 3:03 AM
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Use twins then. Safer, and surprisingly, lighter. Just made a quick calculation, Tendon 10.5 rope 68g/m (9.7 61g/m)+6mm cord 23.2g/m came out at 5472g for 60m combined (5052g for 9.7 rope+cord). Tendon twin/half rated rope 38g/m came out at 4560g for two of them. The double rated ropes are marginally more expensive, but you get the benefit of having two ropes which are actually rated for climbing, yadda yadda. Get twin ropes, preferably ones that rated as are halves too. You'll never know when will they come in handy :)


(This post was edited by herites on Aug 10, 2012, 3:04 AM)


herites


Aug 10, 2012, 3:10 AM
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Or just don't simulrap. Why make the most dangerous part of climbing even more dangerous? Simul rapping has it's place, when it's an emergency, and you have get off the wall, asap, but it's not for everyday use imo. By the way, how much time do you exactly gain by it? About 3-4 mins/pitch?


marc801


Aug 10, 2012, 7:10 AM
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herites wrote:
Or just don't simulrap. Why make the most dangerous part of climbing even more dangerous? Simul rapping has it's place, when it's an emergency, and you have get off the wall, asap, but it's not for everyday use imo. By the way, how much time do you exactly gain by it? About 3-4 mins/pitch?
+1
The supposed time savings of a simul-rap are negated by the extra time needed for setup, double-checking, and coordination. They are only useful in a few unique areas and formations were there are frequently no top anchors (eg: the Needles in SD).


jolery


Aug 11, 2012, 11:56 AM
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ninepointeight wrote:
I'd like to pick up a 6mm tag line for long raps. What's the general consensus for joining the two vastly difference sized ropes? In this circumstance, it would be a 10.5 and a 6mm.

I think I'd feel safest tying an eight on a bight near the end of the fatty and clipping that to the same rope on the other side of the anchor to prevent the knot pulling through. Then there would be two knots to potentially hang up on something though...

What knot do you use? Do you carry a fatter tag line?

I've only used a tiny tag line once on my first Diamond attempt - we retreated from Broadway and nearly got stranded when we screwed up and rigged the EDK with the knot on the fat rope side of the anchor - this resulted in the small rope moving rapidly upwards as we rapped. Freaking terrifying - almost ended up a serious epic because my partner had missed the rap station and was stranded fifty feet laterally off of the rap route. The easiest solution was to pendulum over, get him on the ropes too, and swing back - our tag line I think was around 6 mm - it bounced like a rubber band and felt like it would snap under one person's weight. No way I was going to put us both on it with pendulum and dynamic loads. So we clip every runner together we have and my cordelette so my partner can retrieve the rope after I get to the rap station, then rap down. So I get to rap anchor, and have to let go of rope while my partner is pulling it sideways towards his stranded position. I watch as the tag line is flying up the rock - I wait for it to pull through the anchor and strand us both - luckily my partner grabbed the ropes before this happened.
Since then I've just used two real ropes and been conscious of putting the knot on the skinny rope side when the diameters differ much.

edited to fix where knot was...


(This post was edited by jolery on Aug 11, 2012, 12:55 PM)


billl7


Aug 11, 2012, 1:13 PM
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Dude - that is quite a story. I'd like to understand the details. Would you mind clarifying? Iv'e added comments / questions below.

jolery wrote:
I've only used a tiny tag line once on my first Diamond attempt - we retreated from Broadway and nearly got stranded when we screwed up and rigged the EDK with the knot on the tag line side of the anchor - this resulted in the small rope moving rapidly upwards as we rapped. Freaking terrifying ...

I've seen this effect too but not due to having the knot on the wrong side. It was the case of rapping over an edge, moving the knot down over the edge, and then continuing to rap while watching the knot go right back up to the anchor.

jolery wrote:
... almost ended up a serious epic because my partner had missed the rap station and was stranded fifty feet laterally off of the rap route.

I assume you were NOT simul-rapping. He went first and missed the anchor and came to the end of the tag line with rope-end lower down?

jolery wrote:
The easiest solution was to pendulum over, get him on the ropes too, and swing back - our tag line I think was around 6 mm - it bounced like a rubber band and felt like it would snap under one person's weight. No way I was going to put us both on it with pendulum and dynamic loads.

So you rapped second. The concern was both of you were on the tag line which ran up and through the anchor above before coming down to the knot with the rope?

jolery wrote:
So we clip every runner together we have and my cordelette so my partner can retrieve the rope after I get to the rap station, then rap down. So I get to rap anchor, and have to let go of rope while my partner is pulling it sideways towards his stranded position.

So he is down below pulling the rope over to him and you have to let go of the rope. This is where I get lost. Seems like you could have pulled the rope while he held onto it as well from below.

I'm not trying to critique. Just trying to understand how the knot on the wrong side played into the other problem.

Bill L


jolery


Aug 12, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Bill7 wrote:
I've seen this effect too but not due to having the knot on the wrong side. It was the case of rapping over an edge, moving the knot down over the edge, and then continuing to rap while watching the knot go right back up to the anchor.

I think the much heavier weight of the fat rope causes it to fall through the anchor although it could involve varying friction at anchor or rap device. This happened each rappel that the knot was on the fat rope side.

Bill7 wrote:
I assume you were NOT simul-rapping. He went first and missed the anchor and came to the end of the tag line with rope-end lower down?
No simul rap. Yes he missed rap station because I told him to look climbers' left and it was climbers' right. Not sure of status of rope ends but he was worried about missing anchors and getting stuck and found some tiny stance way to the side, slung a horn and called off rappel. I had no idea what was going on. I rap to him and pendulum over.

Bill7 wrote:
So you rapped second. The concern was both of you were on the tag line which ran up and through the anchor above before coming down to the knot with the rope?

My concern was both climbers on such a small line. I'm sure the tensile strength was officially adequate but it stretched SO much under one person's static weight no way I trusted it for two. This was a borrowed tag line. Movement of rope at this point scary but not the main concern. It moved maybe 30 feet in one rappel.

bill7 wrote:

So he is down below pulling the rope over to him and you have to let go of the rope. This is where I get lost. Seems like you could have pulled the rope while he held onto it as well from below.

Ok after rigging our runners clipping one end to rope partner holding other end I continue to rap and find next rap station. Partner now stranded above me. I am almost at end of ropes so as he pulls rope over to his stance I must let go or he can't get rope. I watch as small rope rockets up relative to fat rope. If tag line had risen above his position he couldn't rap on anchor. If tag line had gone thru anchor before the rope was pulled to his stance we would have been stranded.


Stormeh


Aug 12, 2012, 2:52 PM
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It seems like most of the posts in this thread are implying doing a double strand rap on the joined small diameter and large diameter ropes. Am I misreading this? When using a tag line, isn't it common practice to rap the single large diameter strand off a jamming knot tied in said rope, and only use the tag line to pull (not directly being involved in the rap itself?)

This is the way I have always done it with a tag line.


billl7


Aug 12, 2012, 3:45 PM
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Stormeh wrote:
When using a tag line, isn't it common practice to rap the single large diameter strand off a jamming knot tied in said rope, and only use the tag line to pull (not directly being involved in the rap itself?)
Sure - at the same time, there are occasions when the hardware is so big it is not practical to form a knot that won't fit through.

When I can see that the knot won't pass through the hardware, I dispense with having the tag line tied off down below. The other way to deal with that problem is as the OP mentioned: secure the fat rope back to itself with a knot and a locker.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 12, 2012, 4:07 PM)


billl7


Aug 12, 2012, 3:50 PM
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jolery wrote:
Ok after rigging our runners clipping one end to rope partner holding other end I continue to rap and find next rap station. Partner now stranded above me. I am almost at end of ropes so as he pulls rope over to his stance I must let go or he can't get rope. I watch as small rope rockets up relative to fat rope. If tag line had risen above his position he couldn't rap on anchor. If tag line had gone thru anchor before the rope was pulled to his stance we would have been stranded.

I see. Makes total sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I've used your technique a couple times in ~8 years: connecting things together so can pull rope over after other person raps - but not while concerned about the tag line. Goes to show that a tag line can become a real problem in unexpected ways.

And am glad to hear that on rappel the ends don't come uneven too quickly - although I understand that may depend on the involved diameters, rap devices and other circumstances.

Thanks again!
Bill L


csproul


Aug 13, 2012, 6:09 AM
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jolery wrote:
ninepointeight wrote:
I'd like to pick up a 6mm tag line for long raps. What's the general consensus for joining the two vastly difference sized ropes? In this circumstance, it would be a 10.5 and a 6mm.

I think I'd feel safest tying an eight on a bight near the end of the fatty and clipping that to the same rope on the other side of the anchor to prevent the knot pulling through. Then there would be two knots to potentially hang up on something though...

What knot do you use? Do you carry a fatter tag line?

I've only used a tiny tag line once on my first Diamond attempt - we retreated from Broadway and nearly got stranded when we screwed up and rigged the EDK with the knot on the fat rope side of the anchor - this resulted in the small rope moving rapidly upwards as we rapped. Freaking terrifying - almost ended up a serious epic because my partner had missed the rap station and was stranded fifty feet laterally off of the rap route. The easiest solution was to pendulum over, get him on the ropes too, and swing back - our tag line I think was around 6 mm - it bounced like a rubber band and felt like it would snap under one person's weight. No way I was going to put us both on it with pendulum and dynamic loads. So we clip every runner together we have and my cordelette so my partner can retrieve the rope after I get to the rap station, then rap down. So I get to rap anchor, and have to let go of rope while my partner is pulling it sideways towards his stranded position. I watch as the tag line is flying up the rock - I wait for it to pull through the anchor and strand us both - luckily my partner grabbed the ropes before this happened.
Since then I've just used two real ropes and been conscious of putting the knot on the skinny rope side when the diameters differ much.

edited to fix where knot was...
No offense...but you chose the Diamond to try out this technique for the first time?! Nothing like trying it out in a less stressful environment! Glad you came out ok.


Stormeh


Aug 13, 2012, 9:17 AM
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billl7 wrote:
Sure - at the same time, there are occasions when the hardware is so big it is not practical to form a knot that won't fit through.

When I can see that the knot won't pass through the hardware, I dispense with having the tag line tied off down below. The other way to deal with that problem is as the OP mentioned: secure the fat rope back to itself with a knot and a locker.

Bill L

I would think that securing the fat rope back to itself with a locker and rapping on the single strand would still always be preferable to rapping double strand on the 2 very different diameters, no?

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