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philfell
Feb 19, 2005, 3:02 AM
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I feel there is a time and place for everything. Early in this thread some people mentioned that where these draws were left, it isn't common place to do so. Do you consider Rumney a pure sport climbing crag??? On the other hand.... say you are wall climbing in Zion. You fix the first few pitches of Lunar X. You plan on finishing the route the next day but it rains and you have to go to work the day after. You come back later that week to get your gear and to finish the route. When you get back it's gone. Are you the idiot for leaving your fixed lines thinking that someone would respect the process and not remove them, or are they in the wrong?
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cracklover
Feb 19, 2005, 3:30 AM
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Right here on RC.com, the description for West Virginia-G) Endless Wall (the exact area where the OP was climbing) makes the following very clear statement:
In reply to: WARNING!!! There have been a number of break-ins at these parking areas, over the years. Secure your gear or take it with you!!! It is well known by less-than-friendly locals and less-than-honest vistors that when you park at these places and leave, you will be far from your car and gone for more than long enough to break in and remove anything of value. Anything left in the vehicle should be concealed as far as possible, and you should still get comfortable with the idea that if you leave it behind, you may not have it when you get back. Word to the wise... the folks at the New are not thieves... but there's a bad apple or two in any basket, and neither their community, nor ours, is an exception to that rule. Then, on the other hand, we have areas like: Or: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=16976 (Waimea Wall, in Rumney, NH). I guess what this boils down to is this: know what you're getting into - know the local scene, and plan accordingly. If I were working one of those hard 5.13s at Rumney, I'd have verly little qualms about leaving my draws there for a while. If, on the other hand, theft was quite common at Rumney, I'd call in sick if need be to make the two hour drive to go retrieve them if I'd left a dozen draws up there. I'm not condoning theft, I'm just saying that if I left my draws up at Rumney for two weeks, and theft were common there, I'd buy myself a new set of draws and kick myself for screwing up. GO
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crshbrn84
Feb 19, 2005, 3:33 AM
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WAHHH!!!!.... WAHHH!!!!..... i think some people in this thread need their diapers changed, and need to start washing with J&J no more tears shampoo. Simple solution, if you dont want to have your gear stolen, bootied or whatever, DONT LEAVE IT! plain and simple. Not every climber is a good person like we would all want them to be. So quit arguing, if i leave any draws or gear its because i had to bail on it, and ya know what, its up for the taking.
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jakedatc
Feb 19, 2005, 4:46 AM
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In reply to: I feel there is a time and place for everything. Early in this thread some people mentioned that where these draws were left, it isn't common place to do so. Do you consider Rumney a pure sport climbing crag??? On the other hand.... say you are wall climbing in Zion. You fix the first few pitches of Lunar X. You plan on finishing the route the next day but it rains and you have to go to work the day after. You come back later that week to get your gear and to finish the route. When you get back it's gone. Are you the idiot for leaving your fixed lines thinking that someone would respect the process and not remove them, or are they in the wrong? Rumney is a sport crag.. the trad lines there are in a very small minority and an even smaller group is Pg rated or better if you leave 2 pitches of gear left on a climb with ropes attached then you are blocking a trad route to be climbed by someone else do to your gear and rope being a) in the way of climbing and b) in the way of placements that another group needs for their gear. fixed draws anyone can climb on and on the routes that get fixed or projected it's usually 12+, overhanging and hard to clean so they are usually looked upon favorably instead of "ugh draws are up there gee thats a pain in the ass.. i was really looking forward to traming to clean my 8-12 draws after i onsighted that 13c" crshbrn84 "started climbing in feb 2004, i mainly do top roping and bouldering" write back when you start projecting some hard steep stuff and i bet you'll see differently to whoever said soemthing about the real meaning of redpointing.. go check out sharma, graham, lamiche, lisa rands, beth and tommy's score cards on 8a and i bet they dont call their sends pink/head points..
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jbell2355
Feb 19, 2005, 11:24 AM
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What a mature response from caughtinside! Must be a sport climber.
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csgambill
Feb 19, 2005, 1:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If I came upon a route that had a set of draws on it and wanted to climb the route. I'd remove the draws, only because I don't trust equipment when I don't know it's history. I always get a kick out of this classic gumby reply. "I don't know it's history." They're quickdraws. A quick glance should be enough to determine if they're still 'good.' :lol: It's two biners and webbing. I mean come on, you trust bolts all the time, and you can't see what the shaft of the bolt looks like! Hey, it's you're life, if you want to gamble with it that's your perogotive, but I'll keep mine to my last name, walking around and poker nights. :D In most cases you're probably right. But for me it's an unnecessary risk. I suppose if I were going to hold true to that I could never use any of my friends' gear either. Just know if anyone jacks your gear it won't be me. I already have two sets of draws.
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philfell
Feb 19, 2005, 7:39 PM
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jakedatc, have you ever climbed a wall like I was talking about, or better yet have you even laid your eyes on a big wall line in person? Leaving fixed ropes on a big wall for a period of time is more common than sport climbers leaving draws on projects. I see both sides of the argument, like I said a time and a place for everything. Things you can do in one environment you can't do somewhere else. Some of the trad guys claim everything left behind is litter and could be claimed as bootey, when talking about leaving draws on a project. But these same people probably have goals of someday climbing a big wall, or maybe they already have. When climbing a wall it's common to fix a few pitches rap down, and finish in the days to come. If someone came and cleaned the Huber's ropes while they were working on Zodiac I don't think people would say "the Huber's left for the day, it was bootey"
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jakedatc
Feb 19, 2005, 8:17 PM
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I misread that your example was an wall route... i was thinking regular multipitch trad. ur right that is common and accepted..what do people do about popular routes when that type of thing happens though?(just curious)
In reply to: If someone came and cleaned the Huber's ropes while they were working on Zodiac I don't think people would say "the Huber's left for the day, it was bootey" exactly, the level of routes that usually have fixed draws tend to be hard enough that anyone that would be getting on that route *should* know that they are project or fixed and to be used as is.
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jcarsey
Feb 20, 2005, 12:13 AM
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so when does gear go from left to abandoned? Are we supposed to leave it hanging until it rusts away?
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icarus_burned
Feb 20, 2005, 12:28 AM
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in reply to folk drawing parallells to real life situations with the distinct opinion among many that the climbing community is devoid of assholes in general, unlike the rest of society. it has been noted that its not a reasonable comparison to equate leaving your car and house unlocked to leaving draws hanging due to the fact that again the climbing community is different in some way. i wonder what comparisons could be made with other sub-communities? if i was skiing for a day and was moronic enough to leave my skis etc at the top of a run i had been using i would fully expect them to be missing the following day. now almost all skiers i have met have been pretty nice folk in general but i tend not to associate with dickheads (personal quirk) that does not mean to say that someone carving on by wont have hit the jackpot with my aforementioned skis. (and snowboarders are to cool to steal skis anyway)....... any thoughts or am i just missing the point entirely PS: before flaming this post and my character et al please note the important fact that you who flame do not matter enough to me to care about your opinions. Nice responses are however welcomed
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jakedatc
Feb 20, 2005, 12:43 AM
Post #86 of 101
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In reply to: so when does gear go from left to abandoned? Are we supposed to leave it hanging until it rusts away? if you find a single biner, single draw, small bail anchor of gear, random piece of trad gear you are probably safe in snagging it.. yay if you find a complete line of draws, gear, etc then you should probably leave it because it would be very strange for someone to bail and leave everything when they could just leave a single piece basically talk to some locals and see what the norms are
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jt512
Feb 20, 2005, 12:50 AM
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In reply to: I already have two sets of draws. Two sets of draws? How can anybody have two sets of draws? That's like having two sets of money in your checking account. -Jay
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jt512
Feb 20, 2005, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: so when does gear go from left to abandoned? Are we supposed to leave it hanging until it rusts away? Nobody abandons a set of draws on a route. If there are draws on a route that aren't yours, you don't take them. Period. -Jay
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renobdarb
Feb 20, 2005, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: if I know its a project i've seen the guy working on it or heard of it no i won't touch em, but i've i'm at my crags say 10 times in 2 weeks, never seen anybody on it and draws are there, they are there for the picking, if somebody askes about em n stuff, i'll give em back. but if the hang for a lenghy amount of time and nobodys working it, weren't put up by the first asentionist they are considered abandoned in my opinion. So what if the person who works the route leaves 10 min. before you get there, or arrives 10 minutes after you leave? just because you don't see them there doesn't mean they're not working the route on a regular basis... Finally, someone who illustrates my point... I understand what it means when draws are hanging on a route, and I wouldn't steal them, but someone (someone like snod_ix) will... so if you don't want him to steal your draws, don't leave them there... if you leave draws on a route and snod_ix steals them, complain all you want, but you took the chance, and it's your fault.
In reply to: WAHHH!!!!.... WAHHH!!!!..... i think some people in this thread need their diapers changed, and need to start washing with J&J no more tears shampoo. Simple solution, if you dont want to have your gear stolen, bootied or whatever, DONT LEAVE IT! plain and simple. Not every climber is a good person like we would all want them to be. word.
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renobdarb
Feb 20, 2005, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: WAHHH!!!!.... WAHHH!!!!..... i think some people in this thread need their diapers changed, and need to start washing with J&J no more tears shampoo. Simple solution, if you dont want to have your gear stolen, bootied or whatever, DONT LEAVE IT! plain and simple. Not every climber is a good person like we would all want them to be. word.
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bandycoot
Feb 20, 2005, 5:22 AM
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This debate is hilarious! Screw theory and ethics: People are shitty. Not all of them, but enough. I don't think I would ever leave my draws on a route and expect them to be there when I got back. For God's sakes people, drop the damn issue. Is it ethical to take draws on a hard overhung sport line? I'd say no although many would disagree. Is it stupid to leave your draws and whine when they aren't there later? Hell yes!
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jakedatc
Feb 20, 2005, 6:05 PM
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Nah gabe i'm meaning like wall climbs out west... like what happens when 2-3 groups wanna get on the classic el cap or zion routes that take multiple days and such. it is a well worn debate.. but when you get folks telling new people who are asking the questions "they left it.. you can take it" then people that know this is wrong have to respond or the new folks wont know it.. people would freak out if someone asked "hey.. i found this backpack full of stuff at the bottom of a route and no one was around.. should i take it?" multipitch trad folk would have a kinipshit if sport climbers went SURE go ahead.. they left it for the taking
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ikefromla
Feb 20, 2005, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: Nah gabe i'm meaning like wall climbs out west... like what happens when 2-3 groups wanna get on the classic el cap or zion routes that take multiple days and such. it is a well worn debate.. but when you get folks telling new people who are asking the questions "they left it.. you can take it" then people that know this is wrong have to respond or the new folks wont know it.. people would freak out if someone asked "hey.. i found this backpack full of stuff at the bottom of a route and no one was around.. should i take it?" multipitch trad folk would have a s--- if sport climbers went SURE go ahead.. they left it for the taking amen
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pheenixx
Apr 4, 2005, 3:20 AM
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In reply to: This debate is hilarious! Screw theory and ethics: People are s---. Not all of them, but enough. I don't think I would ever leave my draws on a route and expect them to be there when I got back. For God's sakes people, drop the damn issue. Is it ethical to take draws on a hard overhung sport line? I'd say no although many would disagree. Is it stupid to leave your draws and whine when they aren't there later? Hell yes! yeah -- funny post, got me thinkin'. Hey people -- it is a jungle out there. If you take the gear or not - it's your conscious you'll be wrestlin' with (+ poss bad mojo). If it were me and I had to leave anything of significant value, I'd be camping closeby keeping a watch on things. To leave ANYTHING anywhere more that 24hrs or for a few days -- accect you'll be taking your chances - that's just the way it is. People s---- sometimes. nuff said...? wonder how long this forum will continue....lol... :lol:
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nuts_r_us
Apr 4, 2005, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: nuff said...? wonder how long this forum will continue....lol... :lol: Long as you keep bringing it back. February 20th to April 3rd. Nice job.
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icarus_burned
Apr 4, 2005, 9:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: nuff said...? wonder how long this forum will continue....lol... :lol: Long as you keep bringing it back. February 20th to April 3rd. Nice job. thanks to your god self now april 4th, ironic huh?
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nuts_r_us
Apr 4, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: thanks to your god self now april 4th, ironic huh? What is a god self? Something Scottish like boys in dresses? :wink:
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weschrist
Aug 9, 2012, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: Nobody abandons a set of draws on a route. Not true. There was a full set of draws on a 10b in Maple, presumably because of the forced evacuation from fire a few weeks ago. Seasonal locals used them for about 2 weeks since the route is a pretty fun warmup and nobody had any idea who they belonged to. A similar thing happened to me in the late 90's when a flash flood forced us out of the Box. We abandoned 2 sets of draws on warmups and couldn't make it back for nearly 2 weeks. We showed up just as a helpful young lad was loading them into his pack... I'm sure he had every intention of returning them to their rightful owners.
In reply to: If there are draws on a route that aren't yours, you don't take them. Period. I took them, comma, and will happily return them to the owner. I left a note at the base of the climb and taped one to the board. But 2 weeks on a warm up route with no sign of the owners is "abandoned." Exclamation.
(This post was edited by weschrist on Aug 9, 2012, 10:37 PM)
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jt512
Aug 10, 2012, 2:03 AM
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weschrist wrote: In reply to: Nobody abandons a set of draws on a route. Not true. There was a full set of draws on a 10b in Maple, presumably because of the forced evacuation from fire a few weeks ago. Seasonal locals used them for about 2 weeks since the route is a pretty fun warmup and nobody had any idea who they belonged to. A similar thing happened to me in the late 90's when a flash flood forced us out of the Box. We abandoned 2 sets of draws on warmups and couldn't make it back for nearly 2 weeks. We showed up just as a helpful young lad was loading them into his pack... I'm sure he had every intention of returning them to their rightful owners. In reply to: If there are draws on a route that aren't yours, you don't take them. Period. I took them, comma, and will happily return them to the owner. I left a note at the base of the climb and taped one to the board. But 2 weeks on a warm up route with no sign of the owners is "abandoned." Exclamation. I stand corrected. Every decade or so someone abandons a set of draws when forced to hastily evacuate a crag in an emergency.
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