|
pushdownonrock
Aug 14, 2012, 2:37 PM
Post #1 of 17
(4496 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2012
Posts: 9
|
I'm sure this debate has been covered just looking for a few perspectives.......who should get to name a route the person that finds it or the one that climbs it? .....my issue.....I've run across climbs that I'm sure I'm probably not the first to climb, but the info I could find (and I did a thorough search) on that area is so vague and incomplete ....... the only info I find on some of these makes me think they just walked down the wall naming...not actually climbing....anyway, I am not trying to steal anyone else's accomplishments I'm trying to post descriptive locations of climbs so others can find them ....established or not...thx for the responses
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Aug 14, 2012, 3:17 PM
Post #2 of 17
(4468 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
If you have made a reasonable attempt to find who, if anyone, had climbed the routes before, and were unsuccessful, and you are trying to create a guidebook/topo for the area, I would say, go ahead and name them yourself, but if you are certain that the route had been climbed before (e.g. it has old bolted anchors, or pin scars, or something), don't put your own name o nthe FA, simply say FA unknown.
For a guidebook, it is much better to have route names than have "Unknown1" , "Unknown 2", etc.
If, once you publish the guide, people come out and say hey, I have climbed that one back in 1968, and we used to call it Psychedelic Meltdown, not your stupid Butterflies and Daisies, you will simply update this info next time you get out the update guide.
I have seen multiple occasions of climbs having a couple of names, because of something like this. Sometimes even climbs that were accidentally retro-bolted after they have been climbed on gear... It happens.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Aug 14, 2012, 5:25 PM
Post #3 of 17
(4414 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
It sounds like the routes were named In reply to: the only info I find on some of these makes me think they just walked down the wall naming...not actually climbing
OP - What makes you believe the routes were simply named, but never climbed?
In my opinion, which doesn't count for much, I would say that if there already exists information on routes, with names, then you have no right to go and rename them just because you think they are unclimbed, especially if you haven't led the routes yourself.
I know of one example where a (gifted and prolific) boulderer created a guidebook. Because they could find no written documentation on the problems, they went and named them and claimed the FA for either themselves or the person they knew who had first climbed it recently,,,,
Problem was - the area HAD been climbed before, for years. While some of the problems were new, many were not. The history was available - Had the guidebook author taken the time to contact some of the Old Guard. they would have been able to know about it.
Doing guidebook research requires thorough research, because you will piss people off if you think it is okay to say "Well, no one else has published, so the information doesn't exist."
Best exhaust ALL resources possible before going forward. For the most part, guidebooks aren't the type of literature that gets second editions. Many "current" guidebooks are a decade or more old!
|
|
|
|
|
Marylandclimber
Aug 14, 2012, 5:46 PM
Post #4 of 17
(4393 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2011
Posts: 224
|
I think it's the climber who found it, cleaned it, possibly bolted it, and climbed it then should name it. Sounds fair enough to me.
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Aug 14, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #5 of 17
(4387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
lena_chita wrote: . . . For a guidebook, it is much better to have route names than have "Unknown1" , "Unknown 2", etc..
There is a crag (if you can call it that) in northern MN named Carlton Peak. All the routes simply have a number (ie #6, #9, ect.) When describing routes there it's like a version of 'who's on first' with all the 'well the first half of #3 is a 10. Number 16 is an 8 and ten feet north is #20, what a stout 11.'
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Aug 14, 2012, 7:13 PM
Post #6 of 17
(4349 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
chadnsc wrote: lena_chita wrote: . . . For a guidebook, it is much better to have route names than have "Unknown1" , "Unknown 2", etc.. There is a crag (if you can call it that) in northern MN named Carlton Peak. All the routes simply have a number (ie #6, #9, ect.) When describing routes there it's like a version of 'who's on first' with all the 'well the first half of #3 is a 10. Number 16 is an 8 and ten feet north is #20, what a stout 11.'
There is a crag at Red Rocks called the Numbers crag, withe the same idea. But you have to admit, if a lot of places adopted the same strategy, it would be confusing, not to mention boring.
|
|
|
|
|
wivanoff
Aug 14, 2012, 10:47 PM
Post #7 of 17
(4314 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2007
Posts: 144
|
pushdownonrock wrote: ....who should get to name a route the person that finds it or the one that climbs it?
For Trad:
Usually, the FA party names the route after leading it. If it's a TR (toprope), the FA (first ascent) party still names the route. If someone leads the route after it's been established as a TR, the name remains the same but credit for FA changes. Sometimes, a guidebook author will list FA for a toproped route and FFA (first free ascent) for the same route after it's been led.
I imagine it's the same for Sport and Bouldering. But, I really don't know.
I've seen guidebook authors rename some routes they considered as having offensive names <shrug>
pushdownonrock wrote: the only info I find on some of these makes me think they just walked down the wall naming...not actually climbing....
I know of one cliff where that actually happened. Back in the 50s or 60s, the guidebook author (David Hurrah, I think) walked along the base of the cliff and named and described "potential" lines. Most were eventually climbed but over the years names and ratings were forgotten.
Sometime in the 70s and 80s, we began to explore that cliff again and found old rusted pins and bolts with homemade anchors. For working titles in an informal guidebook we made up descriptive names and referred to some of those routes as "that bolted route" and "the route with the rusty pins". That particular guidebook was not actually published - just passed around among friends. Years later, it was funny to see those routes listed as "Bolted - 5.9" and "Rusty Pins - 5.7"
On other guidebooks I've worked on, I put notice in local climbing shops and contacted the "old guard" over a period of many months. There were still several routes that we just named and list FA as unknown. On some, we finally heard from the FA partys after publication.
I'd say make a good faith effort to be accurate. Contact older climbers. Don't lose sleep over it, you can fix it later.
|
|
|
|
|
jbone
Aug 14, 2012, 11:51 PM
Post #8 of 17
(4299 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2002
Posts: 463
|
Dude, you can call a climb whatever you want but if you expect to identify with other people when you talk about routes its best to use the name that is a consensus.
You DO NOT HAVE TO CLIMB a route to name it but if there is one or two guys who can climb the line then people are gonna listen to what they say over anyone else.
For example... Hueco Tanks classic line "Serves you right, aka Full Service"
Sherman found the line and worked it, was calling it "Full Service" then I think it was Dale Goddard who showed up before John one day and sent it and called it "Serves You Right" in spite of John. To this day the line is referred to as "Full Service" and that is what people identify with but the FA also named it so it is in the guidebooks as "Serves You Right" first then "Full Service" second.
If you find a amazing line and cannot send it but you identify the line to others it generally takes on that name. Point is, the name is gonna identify the line, what people choose to call it is up to them.
|
|
|
|
|
weschrist
Aug 18, 2012, 9:57 PM
Post #9 of 17
(4139 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 579
|
I rename and regrade everything I climb and do my best to quickly publish a new guidebook to make it stick. If a name is already clearly established and I don't like the name, I simply start one hand or foot hold lower and rename it.
Hope that helps.
(Fun fact, that is how many of the routes in the "Not Darren Knezek" guide to Maple Canyon got named. If you want the real names, as determined by the folks who put in all the hard work to establish them, you need to buy Darren's book.)
|
|
|
|
|
dan2see
Aug 19, 2012, 1:49 AM
Post #10 of 17
(4111 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 1497
|
We sometimes climb a crag called "Tim's Bluff". Nobody knows who Tim is or was. It has 6 bolted routes, and nobody knows who bolted them or if they have names.
So I am publishing my names here:
- Tree
- Slab
- Savannah's Misery
- Rocks
- Let Dan do it
- The Boys' Route
There! You read it here!
|
|
|
|
|
hyongx
Aug 19, 2012, 3:35 AM
Post #11 of 17
(4092 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2004
Posts: 209
|
I've always wanted to find a crag and name all the routes after the lyrics in a muddy waters song.
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/martinscorsesebestoftheblues/imyourhoochiecoochieman.htm
son of a gun
make pretty women jump and shout
i'm the hoochie coochie man
black cat bone
I'm gonna mess with you
I'm gonna make you girls
Born for good luck
seven hundred dollars
Everybody knows I'm him.
|
|
|
|
|
dan2see
Aug 19, 2012, 4:17 AM
Post #12 of 17
(4085 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 1497
|
Hmmm ... I don't relate song titles to routes.
But often, I hear my brain singing some lyrics that describes the feeling of the scene. Especially on challenging rock.
For example:
Sutherland Brothers wrote: The lights shine down the valley The wind blows up the alley, Oh -- well I wish I was lying in the arms of Mary.
Peggy Lee wrote: Is that all there is, is that all there is If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing Let's break out the booze and have a ball.
EILEEN AND RUTH wrote: WHY, OH WHY, OH WHY, OH -- WHY DID I EVER LEAVE OHIO? WHY DID I WANDER TO FIND WHAT LIES YONDER WHEN LIFE WAS SO COZY AT HOME?
Dean Martin wrote: Once in love with Amy Always in love with Amy Ever and ever fascinated by her Sets your heart on fire to stay
Honestly, I don't ask for this stuff. It's not original, and certainly not exciting. It just goes 'round and 'round and ...
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Aug 19, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #13 of 17
(4042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454
|
hyongx wrote: I've always wanted to find a crag and name all the routes after the lyrics in a muddy waters song. http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/martinscorsesebestoftheblues/imyourhoochiecoochieman.htm son of a gun make pretty women jump and shout i'm the hoochie coochie man black cat bone I'm gonna mess with you I'm gonna make you girls Born for good luck seven hundred dollars Everybody knows I'm him.
Black Cat Bone is the name of a very popular 9 pitch route in the Potrero Chico.
|
|
|
|
|
marc801
Aug 19, 2012, 6:10 PM
Post #14 of 17
(4036 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2806
|
dan2see wrote: Hmmm ... I don't relate song titles to routes.
|
|
|
|
|
dan2see
Aug 19, 2012, 8:18 PM
Post #15 of 17
(4024 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 1497
|
marc801 wrote: dan2see wrote: Hmmm ... I don't relate song titles to routes. Seriously? Judging by the huge number of routes with song title names you're probably in the minority.
Well my father always said that I was "special".
I'm scanning the "Sport Climbs in the Canadian Rockies" guide-book, which has maybe 2000 sport routes listed in the index. It shows a lot of song titles alright, but even more "smart phrases" from songs and movies. Actually it's pretty chaotic. There's no rules.
None-the-less, we do see some interesting routes with no clues as to the names sometimes. Anybody might name it ad-hoc, and it might catch on, or not. But then we will move on, and we'll never learn what other folks call it.
|
|
|
|
|
DonH
Aug 21, 2012, 6:49 PM
Post #16 of 17
(3892 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2011
Posts: 11
|
even if a route is already named but is fairly new, i give it a name for myself haha. So the group of climbers im with we all adopt said name but respect its original name and the person who named it.
|
|
|
|
|
trockclimbing
Aug 22, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #17 of 17
(3838 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 15, 2009
Posts: 6
|
pushdownonrock-
It sounds like the area you are talking about has been kept on the down low for a reason. If this is true it is likely the first ascent and the routes in question are already spoken for. Does the area you speak of have good access? or does it require "Stealth" type climbing? I would think about you're actions before you put a "name" to something you shouldn't...
I'm not saying I agree with this type of climbing - but posting areas that shouldn't be posted will hurt all climbers not just make you look bad.
Take the high road. If you don't know don't go. and don't name a climb if it already has a name.. You should earn it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
