Forums: Climbing Information: General:
Belay from the Top
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 


Matthew0718


Sep 6, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #1 of 25 (4140 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2012
Posts: 36

Belay from the Top
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?


chadnsc


Sep 6, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #2 of 25 (4134 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

 It all depends on the crag and the route.

Top Rope, Top Belay
-no safe access to base
-route over 30 meters in length

Top Rope, Bottom Belay
-safe access to base
-safe access to top
-route is under 30 meters in length


Matthew0718


Sep 6, 2012, 9:51 AM
Post #3 of 25 (4129 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2012
Posts: 36

Re: [chadnsc] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?


donald949


Sep 6, 2012, 9:55 AM
Post #4 of 25 (4120 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 24, 2007
Posts: 11374

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Matthew0718 wrote:
If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?
Yes, absolutely


csiebsen


Sep 6, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #5 of 25 (4119 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2012
Posts: 53

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Matthew0718 wrote:
If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?

Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them.

P.S. Never attempt this without proper training.


(This post was edited by csiebsen on Sep 6, 2012, 10:03 AM)


jomagam


Sep 6, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #6 of 25 (4098 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be.


Matthew0718


Sep 6, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #7 of 25 (4093 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2012
Posts: 36

Re: [csiebsen] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have no plans to attempt this, I prefer lead. Just asking for curious sake


rocknice2


Sep 6, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #8 of 25 (4078 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1203

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Matthew0718 wrote:
What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?
If I can, from the bottom


chadnsc


Sep 6, 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #9 of 25 (4060 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Matthew0718 wrote:
I have no plans to attempt this, I prefer lead. Just asking for curious sake

Must be all single pitch sport then.


jt512


Sep 6, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #10 of 25 (4046 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [jomagam] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be.

Soft catch? It's toproping.


jomagam


Sep 6, 2012, 11:27 AM
Post #11 of 25 (4027 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [jt512] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be.

Soft catch? It's toproping.

I've never taken a fall close to the anchors when belayed from the top, but I did fall a few times in the gym close to the top while self-belaying and it was more violent than I expected. I know that on one hand gym ropes are semi-static, but on the other hand there's twice as much rope out compared to the top-belay situation.


Matthew0718


Sep 6, 2012, 11:49 AM
Post #12 of 25 (4018 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2012
Posts: 36

Re: [chadnsc] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ya its all single pitch, I live in missouri, routes that are longer than a 60 m rope are non-existant. Also most climbing areas are now illegal or poorly developed


Partner cracklover


Sep 6, 2012, 12:11 PM
Post #13 of 25 (4003 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [donald949] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

donald949 wrote:
Matthew0718 wrote:
If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?
Yes, absolutely

Yes, but... That "anchor" need not consist of nuts, cams, bolts, etc.

The stance method of anchoring is not used much, but while the circumstances may not happen often, there are times when it's best.

GO


areyoumydude


Sep 6, 2012, 12:26 PM
Post #14 of 25 (3988 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 27, 2003
Posts: 1971

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

On top, on bottom, from behind. It's all good.


wonderwoman


Sep 6, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #15 of 25 (3950 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 14, 2002
Posts: 4269

Re: [jomagam] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
I've never taken a fall close to the anchors when belayed from the top, but I did fall a few times in the gym close to the top while self-belaying and it was more violent than I expected.

Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner.


jomagam


Sep 6, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #16 of 25 (3931 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [wonderwoman] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

wonderwoman wrote:
Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner.


Self-belay on usual semi-static gym rope with gri-gri. Why is it so different from Belaying from the top with a gri-gri ?


jt512


Sep 6, 2012, 2:31 PM
Post #17 of 25 (3925 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [jomagam] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner.


Self-belay on usual semi-static gym rope with gri-gri. Why is it so different from Belaying from the top with a gri-gri ?

Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.

There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically).

Jay


jomagam


Sep 6, 2012, 2:55 PM
Post #18 of 25 (3916 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [jt512] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:

Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.

Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.

jt512 wrote:
There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically).
Jay

Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.


Partner cracklover


Sep 6, 2012, 3:37 PM
Post #19 of 25 (3892 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [jomagam] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.

Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.

No you don't. I can eat a sandwich and keep a few pounds of force on the belay rope at all times just as well from the bottom as from the top. Either way, as soon as the climber moves up, I take in slack. Of course if the climber wants to move down, I may have to drop my sandwich, but I'll make that rat bastard pay for his insolence!

In reply to:
jt512 wrote:
There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically).
Jay

Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.

Your guts are apparently not all that knowledgeable in the realm of physics. Don't take it hard, though - my guts are much better about selecting which toppings to select to make a pizza yummy for me than they are at solving physics problems.

Hmm, all this talk about pizza and sandwiches is making me hungry. Think I'll go have a snack.

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Sep 6, 2012, 3:38 PM)


jt512


Sep 6, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #20 of 25 (3888 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [jomagam] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.

Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.

A little I suppose, as the climber nears the top, but it really shouldn't be an issue. What, if anything, is more of an issue, is when belaying from the bottom on a long route the belayer has to be super aware at the start of the route, since with rope stretch the climber can deck. For the same length route belaying from the top reduces the problem because with less rope out there will less rope stretch.

In reply to:
jt512 wrote:
There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically).
Jay

Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.

The final tension in the rope will be equal to the climber's weight, but when you fall on a top rope with no slack in the rope, the rope will stretch past its equilibrium point and then recover. At its maximum length its tension is theoretically twice the climber's weight.

Jay


jomagam


Sep 6, 2012, 4:43 PM
Post #21 of 25 (3865 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [jt512] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
The final tension in the rope will be equal to the climber's weight, but when you fall on a top rope with no slack in the rope, the rope will stretch past its equilibrium point and then recover. At its maximum length its tension is theoretically twice the climber's weight.
Jay

Duh


bearbreeder


Sep 6, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #22 of 25 (3848 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The other very good reason for learning how to top belay properly as a beginner is to practice for multi

It will get you used to anchoring in and rope management


Marylandclimber


Sep 6, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #23 of 25 (3831 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 3, 2011
Posts: 224

Re: [csiebsen] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

csiebsen wrote:
Matthew0718 wrote:
If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?

Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them.

P.S. Never attempt this without proper training.

What? If he has an auto block or is belaying with a munter hitch then the anchor is taking the climber's weight.


acorneau


Sep 6, 2012, 7:05 PM
Post #24 of 25 (3812 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889

Re: [Marylandclimber] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Marylandclimber wrote:
csiebsen wrote:
Matthew0718 wrote:
If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?

Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them.

P.S. Never attempt this without proper training.


What? If he has an auto block or is belaying with a munter hitch then the anchor is taking the climber's weight.


... or if he is belaying off his harness and using a re-direct.


ecade


Sep 7, 2012, 6:57 AM
Post #25 of 25 (3699 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 23, 2011
Posts: 132

Re: [Matthew0718] Belay from the Top [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Matthew0718 wrote:
What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?

Like almost all facets of this most awesome sport, it's quite dependant on the situation

Slingshot top rope method, like you'd find in your gym is your safest bet if you don't have knowledge and experience in top belay methods. and if the terrain is suitable for it.

Top belay isn't too difficult but you have to understand the gear you are using and its limitations.

If we are talking single pitch, sport or TR and most trad lines i currently work, Sling shot.

Single Pitch Trad line with walk off or rap station on a route that meanders such that there would be a lot of rope drag for a sling shot belay, top belay. But remember to protect your second (important in sling shot but more so I think in top belay)

Multi pitch always top belay..Duh :)

If top belaying, you should learn and by learn I mean understand the concept and know its application the means to top belay. I.e. how to put an ATC into guide mode, how to load a grigri (yes easy but the easy things can kill you as quickly as the tough ones and so deserve respect) and most importantly how to lower. It is very dangerous to just open the Cam on the gri from a top belay, you need to learn the redirect (again not challenging in hte slightest), its nearly impossible to lower someone on an ATC in Guide mode (which it must be in for a safe top belay, unless on indirect belay which is not always ideal, ah this sport so awesomely complete and yet simple kind of like bob marley) without using sling and cord redirected and weighted... Knowing how to construct a simple 3-1 pulley with a prussik or get fancy with a 5-1 helps too. Or let the second do the work with an assisted hoist is helpful too, when/ if you second can't finish the route or a section of it.

And again, remember protecting your second protects your anchor, protects you. its a system so remember that when leading, I'm still learning it too I think that part of climbing is very much a journey not a destination.

The point of this convoluted reply is to ideally confuse you for what I think is a noble purpose. To explain in a kind way that there is a lot to know and the more you know, the more you know you don't know :), To say that IMHO learn and practice before you get yourself or second, in hot water, its a valuable skill to learn, one that will begin to open the horizons of your climbing. You don't need to be a rocket scientist (i'm most certainly not and having learnt and practiced I feel proficient in this skill such that I recently completed my first alpine trad rock climb)

The only other thing i'd say is learn self rescue before attempting multi pitches and make sure your climbing partner is well versed in them too. Aside from a valuable skill it helped me better understand gear, its limitations and the technical rope side of climbing one that is surely incredibly important if you wish to be an old climber at least

Happy and Safe Climbing


Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook