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petsfed


Sep 17, 2012, 7:39 PM
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Romney doesn't understand how taxes work
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... or at least wants his richest donors to think so

In reply to:
There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter whatÖThese are people who pay no income tax.

It is certainly the case that 47% of people filing tax returns paid no federal income tax. What Mittens doesn't say is that around 80% of those non-payers still work, but make less than $16,000 per year (by being retired, on minimum wage, students, etc).


skiclimb


Sep 17, 2012, 8:08 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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And when you look at their actual tax rate

SSI, Sales tax, Gas Tax. car registration, tolls, etc

Many still paid a higher percentage of their overall income in taxes than RMoney did.


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 17, 2012, 8:10 PM)


petsfed


Sep 17, 2012, 8:12 PM
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Re: [skiclimb] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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Exactly.


veganclimber


Sep 17, 2012, 8:15 PM
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Romney also doesn't seem to understand that a lot of those 47% are teabagging republicans.


curt


Sep 17, 2012, 9:33 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
Romney also doesn't seem to understand that a lot of those 47% are teabagging republicans.

Good point. If Romney's not careful, he may offend his trailer trash for Jesus constituency.

Curt


petsfed


Sep 17, 2012, 9:38 PM
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I think they operate on the "I'm against increasing taxes right now because I plan to be rich some day in the future" line of "reasoning". Somehow I doubt that Mitten's statements will really register with that kind of person.


veganclimber


Sep 17, 2012, 10:04 PM
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petsfed wrote:
I think they operate on the "I'm against increasing taxes right now because I plan to be rich some day in the future" line of "reasoning". Somehow I doubt that Mitten's statements will really register with that kind of person.

I'm sure you're right. There are a lot of republicans that are on government assistance of some kind, but will still agree with what Romney just said.


ubu


Sep 18, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Re: [veganclimber] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
Romney also doesn't seem to understand that a lot of those 47% are teabagging republicans.



Pirate


guangzhou


Sep 18, 2012, 7:49 PM
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Maybe presidential candidates should come hire RC.com users to teach them how the system actually works. Everyone here seems to understand it it so much better than our politicians.


petsfed


Sep 18, 2012, 9:20 PM
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You'd think that an actual politician would understand that the majority of that 47% don't pay federal income tax because they don't make enough, not because they're doing everything they can not to pay taxes.

The point of a progressive tax is so that everybody loses the same fraction of their post-rent income to the government, not because some wealth-distribution-fanatic thought it was a clever way to stick it to those mean old millionaires. If Romney is too stupid to realize that a huge fraction of the voting populace has basically no post-rent income, then I have serious doubts about his ability to govern this country.


dr_feelgood


Sep 19, 2012, 6:43 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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http://www.theonion.com/...lion-starving,29603/


Toast_in_the_Machine


Sep 19, 2012, 9:41 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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I think that the Mittster got some things blurred in his head. On one hand the 47% number was floating out there about that time as a number to make people who pay taxes feel indignant. It is an accurate number, but it gets people who don't think they get value for their taxes worked up thinking that there are people getting a free ride and reinforces the belief that the "welfare state" is huge. He mixed this with the fact that no democrats will get below a minimum of 40 plus percent of the electorate because, for some reason, republicans come off as racist religous nut jobs. (Maybe because while all republicans are not that way the vast majority of people who are racist fuckwads are republican.) So on a good day Mitt maybe able to pull 6% of people who are "undecided" to vote for him. Realistically this is the swing between 47 and 53 percent.

Now to me the questions really are: outside of this year, is Mitt in the 47%? My money would be on "yes". And will Mitt pull more than than 47% on election day? (Popular vote, not electoral collage). If the price of gas at the pump stats where it is, then probably. If it drops back to the $3.50 range then probably not. If it spikes over $4 in the next month, then Mitt might just win. Might.


hobgoblin11


Oct 10, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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I dont understand how someones income has anything at all to do with their tax rate. If you REALLY wanted to tax people based upon their impact on the social infrastructure you should have a consumption based tax on all "non-need" items (i.e. utilities, food would be excluded along with second hand items as their impact on the social infrastructure was initially taxed at the time of first purchase).

Those who consume the most "wants" would pay the most tax.. reflecting their actual consumption of all the things that impact society.

by exempting needs such as groceries, second hand items and utilities, the tax wouldnt be regressive UNLESS the poor chose to purchase luxury items.. in which case they should pay taxes.

Of course this would remove any polticial control the governemnt currently has through progressive income taxation and all you entitlement-minded bitches would have to STFU but it would certainly be a lot more fair and ethical than this bullshit scheme we have now.


hugepedro


Oct 10, 2012, 3:27 PM
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Re: [hobgoblin11] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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hobgoblin11 wrote:
I dont understand how someones income has anything at all to do with their tax rate. If you REALLY wanted to tax people based upon their impact on the social infrastructure you should have a consumption based tax on all "non-need" items (i.e. utilities, food would be excluded along with second hand items as their impact on the social infrastructure was initially taxed at the time of first purchase).

Those who consume the most "wants" would pay the most tax.. reflecting their actual consumption of all the things that impact society.

by exempting needs such as groceries, second hand items and utilities, the tax wouldnt be regressive UNLESS the poor chose to purchase luxury items.. in which case they should pay taxes.

Of course this would remove any polticial control the governemnt currently has through progressive income taxation and all you entitlement-minded bitches would have to STFU but it would certainly be a lot more fair and ethical than this bullshit scheme we have now.

"I don't understand..."

Clearly.

A wealthy person uses way more government resources than a poor person, for one thing.

I won't attempt to explain the relationships between progressive tax policy and a well-functioning society, the strength of the middle class, and as fuel for our economy. I have a feeling that would be a waste of my time.


petsfed


Oct 10, 2012, 3:37 PM
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Re: [hobgoblin11] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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Your system would be a disincentive to sell things new. Don't get me wrong, I think the designed obsolescence business model is pretty shitty, but at least it encourages innovation.

I like the concept of a luxury tax, but I don't really trust any politicians to think critically about what really is or isn't a luxury, and anyway, there's a sliding scale of luxury, from small-screen black & white television up to 70" plasma screen, and I can't imagine that an easily understood (and therefore difficult to game) system would really address that.

I find your flat rejection of utilties as taxable to be a bit weird, if for no other reason than because taxing the use of infrastructure paid for in part by tax money seems more symmetric.

What I see though is that you and I have very different views of the point of taxes, and what is an equitable distribution of the load.


hobgoblin11


Oct 10, 2012, 4:04 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] Romney doesn't understand how taxes work [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
"I don't understand..."

Clearly.

A wealthy person uses way more government resources than a poor person, for one thing.

I won't attempt to explain the relationships between progressive tax policy and a well-functioning society, the strength of the middle class, and as fuel for our economy. I have a feeling that would be a waste of my time.

Oh I cant wait to hear your explanation about how a wealthy individual earner uses more government resources.. can you even provide ONE example?

keep in mind before you respond.. Im NOT referring to corporate taxation.. only individual income taxes. ( I do think corporate taxes are a little high but should be significant in a first world economy)

You only say your wasting your time because you have no ethical justification for progressive individual income taxes. If you think progressive taxes are critical to a "well-functioning society" and wont accomplish what a fair and voluntary sales tax would.. then we have much bigger problems.

From the two replies.. its pretty apparent you have real envy issues when it comes to class and income.


hobgoblin11


Oct 10, 2012, 4:10 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Your system would be a disincentive to sell things new. Don't get me wrong, I think the designed obsolescence business model is pretty shitty, but at least it encourages innovation.

I like the concept of a luxury tax, but I don't really trust any politicians to think critically about what really is or isn't a luxury, and anyway, there's a sliding scale of luxury, from small-screen black & white television up to 70" plasma screen, and I can't imagine that an easily understood (and therefore difficult to game) system would really address that.

I find your flat rejection of utilties as taxable to be a bit weird, if for no other reason than because taxing the use of infrastructure paid for in part by tax money seems more symmetric.

What I see though is that you and I have very different views of the point of taxes, and what is an equitable distribution of the load.

The market value of an item determines its relative tax.. NOT a politician. We the consumer make that choice when we make the purchase.

I only disclude utilties to prevent the tax from becoming regressive as I view things like running water and electricity as necessities.. not luxuries. I dont think thats a hard arguement to make.

There is no point of view.. the point of individual taxes is to recover the cost of your individual impact on society.. the only real measure of which.. is how much you consume.

If I make 10 million dollars a year.. live in a 1 bedroom apt and drive an old shitty car, have no children and consume little food.. what possible justification is there for me to give 40% of my earnings to the rest of society?


petsfed


Oct 10, 2012, 4:26 PM
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hobgoblin11 wrote:
If I make 10 million dollars a year.. live in a 1 bedroom apt and drive an old shitty car, have no children and consume little food.. what possible justification is there for me to give 40% of my earnings to the rest of society?

Because you sure as shit ain't usin' it?

Ok, how about you would not have made a fraction of that amount if you had to pay for every time one of your trucks used the interstate. Or if you had to pay for the entire network infrastructure you're using for your e-business model. Or that you are benefiting much MUCH more from government funded research and development than any one of your employees?


hobgoblin11


Oct 10, 2012, 4:43 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Because you sure as shit ain't usin' it?

Ok, how about you would not have made a fraction of that amount if you had to pay for every time one of your trucks used the interstate. Or if you had to pay for the entire network infrastructure you're using for your e-business model. Or that you are benefiting much MUCH more from government funded research and development than any one of your employees?

HOLY CRAP are you fucking retarded? You dont know the difference between corporate and individual income taxes?

EVERYTHING you mentioned is covered under CORPORATE taxes.. which I CLEARLY stated I have no issue with. We have the highest corporate taxes in the world.. I have no doubt they MORE than cover everything you mentioned.. again having NOTHING to do with my individual income.

Try again.

and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.


dr_feelgood


Oct 10, 2012, 5:21 PM
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hobgoblin11 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Because you sure as shit ain't usin' it?

Ok, how about you would not have made a fraction of that amount if you had to pay for every time one of your trucks used the interstate. Or if you had to pay for the entire network infrastructure you're using for your e-business model. Or that you are benefiting much MUCH more from government funded research and development than any one of your employees?

HOLY CRAP are you fucking retarded? You dont know the difference between corporate and individual income taxes?

EVERYTHING you mentioned is covered under CORPORATE taxes.. which I CLEARLY stated I have no issue with. We have the highest corporate taxes in the world.. I have no doubt they MORE than cover everything you mentioned.. again having NOTHING to do with my individual income.

Try again.

and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.
Oh, the philosophy of greed.


petsfed


Oct 10, 2012, 6:06 PM
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hobgoblin11 wrote:
and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.

I rewrote my response five or six times to try to trim out the bile. Its not working.

To begin with, I can't think of a single person who makes more than a million dollars a year who doesn't have considerable sway over the operating of their employer.

If you see small business loans, road maintenance, national defense, the farm subsidies, and a litany of other things that are paid for by taxes as "entitlements" (nobody ever says "unwarranted entitlements" when they say that, as if the things you are entitled to are ALWAYS unwarranted, even though certain things, like free speech, firearm possession, or a juried trial are things that we are entitled to by dint of being legal residents/citizens) then you really don't understand what your taxes are actually paying for.

Also, if you work for a business that benefits from those things, and don't see how the business model wouldn't work without non-toll roads, or without telephone lines subsidized by the government, then I don't know what to tell you. It must be nice working somewhere where you never have to think about what occurs outside of your cubicle.


curt


Oct 10, 2012, 7:00 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
hobgoblin11 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Because you sure as shit ain't usin' it?

Ok, how about you would not have made a fraction of that amount if you had to pay for every time one of your trucks used the interstate. Or if you had to pay for the entire network infrastructure you're using for your e-business model. Or that you are benefiting much MUCH more from government funded research and development than any one of your employees?

HOLY CRAP are you fucking retarded? You dont know the difference between corporate and individual income taxes?

EVERYTHING you mentioned is covered under CORPORATE taxes.. which I CLEARLY stated I have no issue with. We have the highest corporate taxes in the world.. I have no doubt they MORE than cover everything you mentioned.. again having NOTHING to do with my individual income.

Try again.

and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.
Oh, the philosophy of greed.

It's also just classic when a blithering idiot calls anyone else retarded.

Curt


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2012, 7:17 PM
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curt wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
hobgoblin11 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Because you sure as shit ain't usin' it?

Ok, how about you would not have made a fraction of that amount if you had to pay for every time one of your trucks used the interstate. Or if you had to pay for the entire network infrastructure you're using for your e-business model. Or that you are benefiting much MUCH more from government funded research and development than any one of your employees?

HOLY CRAP are you fucking retarded? You dont know the difference between corporate and individual income taxes?

EVERYTHING you mentioned is covered under CORPORATE taxes.. which I CLEARLY stated I have no issue with. We have the highest corporate taxes in the world.. I have no doubt they MORE than cover everything you mentioned.. again having NOTHING to do with my individual income.

Try again.

and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.
Oh, the philosophy of greed.

It's also just classic when a blithering idiot calls anyone else retarded.

Curt

I have to agree with you here Curt.


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2012, 7:24 PM
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petsfed wrote:
hobgoblin11 wrote:
and as far as whether or not Im using it.. individual income is what I EARNED.. not you. According to your logic we should just confiscate anything anyone has in excess and give it to little entitlement minded folk like you? Because somehow you deserve it for your really hard job cooking fries or running the register at some climbers emporium? nice attitude Stalin.

I rewrote my response five or six times to try to trim out the bile. Its not working.

To begin with, I can't think of a single person who makes more than a million dollars a year who doesn't have considerable sway over the operating of their employer.

If you see small business loans, road maintenance, national defense, the farm subsidies, and a litany of other things that are paid for by taxes as "entitlements" (nobody ever says "unwarranted entitlements" when they say that, as if the things you are entitled to are ALWAYS unwarranted, even though certain things, like free speech, firearm possession, or a juried trial are things that we are entitled to by dint of being legal residents/citizens) then you really don't understand what your taxes are actually paying for.

Also, if you work for a business that benefits from those things, and don't see how the business model wouldn't work without non-toll roads, or without telephone lines subsidized by the government, then I don't know what to tell you. It must be nice working somewhere where you never have to think about what occurs outside of your cubicle.

While I agree that corporate tax and personal taxes are two different things, and as I've said before, I don't think the rich should pay a higher percentage just because they make more money, I don't understand this guys line of thinking.

Yes, I believe businesses use the infrastructure, but because those businesses pay taxes that are also paying for that infrastructure.

I have a friend who has been a college student for over a decade now. He wants people who earn higher income than his to pay more taxes. Of course, he lives of tax revenue, government grants, and other government funding. Should student who receive "extra services" paid for by taxes pay more taxes because they are using more of the system.

Just asking, personally, I love to see a much higher percentage of the government's budget going to education.


hugepedro


Oct 10, 2012, 7:53 PM
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hobgoblin11 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
"I don't understand..."

Clearly.

A wealthy person uses way more government resources than a poor person, for one thing.

I won't attempt to explain the relationships between progressive tax policy and a well-functioning society, the strength of the middle class, and as fuel for our economy. I have a feeling that would be a waste of my time.

Oh I cant wait to hear your explanation about how a wealthy individual earner uses more government resources.. can you even provide ONE example?

Ok. I could provide way more than one. But here you go. Most wealthy people are employing lots of people, some of them hundreds, thousand, or tens of thousands or more. The wealth that said wealthy person is enjoying is dependent on the productivity and competency of their employees. Most of those employees likely received a public education. The average cost of a public education is over $10,000 per pupil per year, so $130,000 for 1 employeeís high school degree. If I have 100 employees, thatís $13 million worth of education Iím enjoying. And thatís just the cost side, not even talking about the value creation side that the employees are able to create for their employer because they have a tax-payer funded education. How many poor people do you know that get $13 million worth of free stuff from the government?

hobgoblin11 wrote:
keep in mind before you respond.. Im NOT referring to corporate taxation.. only individual income taxes. ( I do think corporate taxes are a little high but should be significant in a first world economy)

Oh I see, you want to just arbitrarily exclude some data that is not advantageous for your argument. You realize that many corporations are S corps, not the typical corporation you are familiar with? And in spite of your self-awarded "advantage", I just cleaned your clock.

hobgoblin11 wrote:
You only say your wasting your time because you have no ethical justification for progressive individual income taxes. If you think progressive taxes are critical to a "well-functioning society" and wont accomplish what a fair and voluntary sales tax would.. then we have much bigger problems.

No, dummy. Non-progessive tax systems reduce aggregate demand in our economy. And I donít know if you noticed, but lack of demand is the biggest economic problem we have right now because weíve had 3 decades of stagnant wages for the working class. And Iíve already used words you donít even understand, which is why trying to explain any of this to you is a waste of time.


hobgoblin11 wrote:
From the two replies.. its pretty apparent you have real envy issues when it comes to class and income.
Yeah. My issue is that I need pissants like you to be able to buy lots of stuff so that I can accumulate more wealth, so Iím against policies/systems that take money out of your hands. And I am envious of people like you that donít have to think too much to pay your rent, whereas my livelihood depends on figuring out complex stuff that keeps me up at night.

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