Its just now that im getting into harder levels of trad where its not a casual carry a ton of gear 5.8 that i'm trying. Its more like a 5 pitch climb where 2 pitches are hand size pro while the other three are smaller, and its at my limit of leading ability. I just want to get up the route with as little gear on me as possible for weight purposes but still be able to bring more with me in case we need it later.

There are numerous 1000' routes where all that is needed is a standard rack of cams and nuts. You're approaching your problem from the wrong direction - you shouldn't be trying to figure out how to carry more gear; you should be improving your leading ability so that you don't need so much. Realistically, it sounds like you're not ready for the routes you are currently contemplating.

Its just now that im getting into harder levels of trad where its not a casual carry a ton of gear 5.8 that i'm trying. Its more like a 5 pitch climb where 2 pitches are hand size pro while the other three are smaller, and its at my limit of leading ability. I just want to get up the route with as little gear on me as possible for weight purposes but still be able to bring more with me in case we need it later.

H

I really can't tell if Marc is right, or if you are. Can you give examples of some of the routes you're contemplating doing that might require the second bringing that much additional gear?

Now that I've reread the OP, I realized I misinterpreted it the first time. I had *thought* the OP was talking about a 5.8 at the "limit of his leading ability" - now I get what he was implying. I also checked his profile which currently states that he leads 10c and follows 11d trad - but I also realize that may not have been updated in weeks/months/years/ever. But my basic point still stands - a 5 pitch route that is fingers to hands shouldn't require such a huge amount of extra gear that hauling is required - even in 5.12-5.13 land.

Now that I've reread the OP, I realized I misinterpreted it the first time. I had *thought* the OP was talking about a 5.8 at the "limit of his leading ability" - now I get what he was implying. I also checked his profile which currently states that he leads 10c and follows 11d trad - but I also realize that may not have been updated in weeks/months/years/ever. But my basic point still stands - a 5 pitch route that is fingers to hands shouldn't require such a huge amount of extra gear that hauling is required - even in 5.12-5.13 land.

Whether you misread his OP or not, I think you're still *probably* right. But before I weighed in, I wanted to get some additional data, because I certainly could imagine a route that *would* require a lot of extra gear. I must say that in nearly 15 years of climbing, I've never had to do anything like that, but I'm perfectly happy to hear what the OP has in mind before jumping to any conclusions.

For example, imagine a four pitch route that follows a single crack that slowly, over four pitches, goes from tips to wide offwidth. Neither the leader nor the second is going to want to climb that first pitch of tips to wide fingers while carrying an entire pitch worth of wide gear on him. A mini-haul would be a great solution.

GO