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potreroed
Oct 1, 2012, 6:30 PM
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We've had a number of similar incidents here in the Potrero Chico even though the guidebook warns climbers of the routes where you have to be extra careful. We've learned to always tie a knot in the end of the rope.
We should also heed the warning about borrowed ropes.
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rgold
Oct 2, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Modern climbing procedures increasingly include all kinds of checks, e.g. whether harness buckle is doubled back, whether tie-in knot is correctly tied and threaded, and whether belayer's device carabiner is locked. Coming from an old school where it was an article of faith that people would perform these checks on themselves, I've always found these things a bit obsessive.
But when it comes to lowering off, the evidence is pretty clear that people, including very experienced people, make dangerous mistakes. So as a matter of self-preservation, the person who is going to be lowered should always tie a knot in the end of the ropes or verify, when they go to tie that knot, that the belayer has already done so.
The situation is only going to get worse as some people start using 80m ropes. It isn't all that long ago that it would have been thought sociopathic to install an anchor that required a 70m rope.
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david_g48
Oct 2, 2012, 3:15 PM
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It is my opinion that the use of longer ropes adds to the chance of more accidents. The most common one I believe is that unaware climbers rap off the end of their rope. Second, it puts the belayer and climber further apart making it hard to keep eye contact with each other which can be important. Third, with that much rope out there is a lot of stretch and if the second climber falls near the deck no matter how tight the leader is belaying the second will hit, sometimes with considerable force. I'm not saying that the longer ropes shouldn't be used just that there are some things to be considered. On a positive note just think how a longer rope helps the economy as we have to spend more $$$ per rope. I seldom see anyone buying a 50 meter rope anymore and with the popularity of 70 meter ropes just starting the 60 may be on the way out as well.
(This post was edited by david_g48 on Oct 2, 2012, 3:57 PM)
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bearbreeder
Oct 2, 2012, 3:46 PM
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the problem IMO isnt longer ropes ... its the way people use them
i mean really do you have to do a TR gangbang on every single sport climb that is 60m+ ... ive seem people here tie 2 ropes toghether and gangbang exasperator which is a 50m crack here ... if they fell in the first 20 feet theyd deck
using long ropes on multi here is very useful for linking pitches ... whether you should do so or not depends on yr confidence in yr partner and the nature of the climb ... but long ropes arent the issue ... its people making decisions
the $$$/m tends to be roughly in line regardless ... heres a popular rope which works out to ~ $2.82 / m
http://www.mec.ca/...ocity-9.8mm-rope.jsp
people likely made the same argument when 60m took over from 50m ... and theyll make it again ...
the problem is the people using them, not the rope
if you dont know the climb or the rope, tie a knot in the bottom ... and if yr lowering someone you dont need to lower them like speedy gonzales, keep an eye on the end ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 2, 2012, 3:49 PM)
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david_g48
Oct 2, 2012, 4:04 PM
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I did not say it cost more per meter of rope, it costs more per rope. We will replace ropes at approximately the same rate whether or not they are 50, 60, 70 or 80 meter ropes which will result in more $$$ spent.
I agree that human error is involved in the use of longer ropes most of the time when an accident occurs just wanted to list some things that we need to be aware of when using longer ropes.
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bearbreeder
Oct 2, 2012, 4:21 PM
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i dont really agree with that david ... ive chopped 70m ropes down to 60 after the ends wore out ... so in that regard i actually got more use out of the 70 in that regard ... sport whippers wear out the ends pretty quickly
regardless ... complacency is what kills ...
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david_g48
Oct 2, 2012, 4:48 PM
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I agree with when you say that complacency is a dangerous thing.
Just one thought about cutting the ends off a 70 meter rope. We did the same with 50 meter ropes but don't you now have to buy another 70 for those long routes unless you bought the 70 to just do 60 meter routes so that you can cut off the worn ends from whipping.
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bearbreeder
Oct 2, 2012, 4:57 PM
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as you suspect it now becomes a 60m rope ... which youll use on the 30m climbs here 
the nature of the routes dictate the rope ... if developers put up routes that require longer ropes, then you need to use the right gear ... or not climb those routes ...
for squamish a 70m isnt usually needed, but is very useful for linking pitches, and once you whip enough youll still have a 60m ...
but for some places in the rockies or in skaha, or other places ... a 70m should be standard by default IMO ... there have been enough lowering epics to warrant it there ... and its doubly dangerous in that there are 30m climbs right next to 35m ones ... there "may" be an intermediate rap station, but then is it safer to do 2 raps rather than just use a longer rope?
also be VERY careful on those "30m" climbs or raps ... even in squamish there are some raps where a 30m will just barely make it with rope stretch ... and youll have to untie the knots in the ends ...should you let go of the rope after the rap, you might have trouble retrieving the line
there was an accident a while back in skaha where on a 30m climb someone pulled a bight through the ring and tied off for a lower ... the problem was that you need the full 30m to get down so that the person shorted themselves by several feet when doing so, if they retied/rethread normally it would have been fine ... they got dropped off the end of the rope and tumbled down requiring an EMT rescue ....
id personally have the extra 10m than not personally
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 2, 2012, 5:02 PM)
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hazcat
Oct 2, 2012, 5:41 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: if you dont know the climb or the rope, tie a knot in the bottom ... and if yr lowering someone you dont need to lower them like speedy gonzales, keep an eye on the end ...
exactly (I don't know what the deal is with the high speed lowers these days, it's almost like a show off thing)!
and I think everyone should be taught from the beginning of to always keep an eye on the end, so it becomes a habit. Just as for rapping you don't want to blindly go racing down without trying to at least look a little bit ahead and make sure somehow, someway you're not about to go off an end or ends.
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