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redlude97


Oct 4, 2012, 8:45 AM
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Re: [chasetherabbit] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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chasetherabbit wrote:
Saw this post and literally signed up to rockclimbing.com to reply to it. You are going to get someone hurt.
1: Conforming to one type of anchor on every double bolted anchor spot displays your inexperience. (As well as the carabiner question)
2: Your carabiner question. It is NOT okay to use only one carabiner at the powerpoint, even if it is a locker it can come undone. Always two carabiners opposite and opposed.
3: Cordelette anchor: Is it safe to say that every route you climb has absolutely no traverse? Falling anywhere off the rope line you positioned that anchor for will cause stress on one of the bolts. Studies show the cordelette anchor istelf can never achieve perfect equality. Depending on the route, it is usually safer to go with a sliding X, provided the bolts are perfect and theres no worry of extension... and a bit of other things that YOU should know about as the person doing anchors for someone. For example...
4: That pic you posted has carabiners on "RAP" rings...
Your ignorance will hurt someone, buy some anchor books, search the internet, take a class and speak with old rock climbing specialists then come back and say you've learned to be safe.
My apologies for coming off rude, but this is why people get hurt.
3. Even with a traverse, why would a sliding x be better? Why would perfect equalization be necessary on two bomber bolts? Would 2 QDs be inadequate as well then by your standard?
4. And?????


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 9:52 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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Redlude97, not all bolts are bomber. And if you send a beginner off to a crag of 50 sport routes with a pre-tied anchor you're an idiot. Do you suggest that this "beginner" disregard equality on double bolted sport routes?
Say, this beginner decides to go ahead to the local sport crag slapping in his same length cordelette at every 2 bolt anchor. Because nobody disagrees with him he assumes its okay. He doesnt check one of the bolts (that had been drilled improperly) and due to the weight he produces upon falling off the direction of pull he rips one bolt out. Sure, there is little to no extension in a cordelette set-up but does that make it okay? If you're gonna TR from a two-bolt anchor with why not just make it an equalette? Safer, long, no extension, and has a wide arc for traversing. (im just gonna stop writing about this here i dnt want to write a text-book)

If the bolts are bomber, a sliding X on a two bolt anchor is the best-known method. "It is better to dynamically equalize the load on the gear [bolts in this situation] in an effort to prevent failure than to anticipate failure and mitigate the consequence of extension." The extension is longer but according to studies done by John Long, Craig Conally and a member of Rock & Ice magazine, true shock loading with the sliding x cannot occur when there is dynamic rope in the system. Review pages 159-160 in "Climbing Anchors" by John Long and Bob gaines: "Granted, you avoid building anchors that could result in really long extension, but there's little cause to fear ordinary set-ups."

As for the rings, i was hinting upon him to look them up. I was hoping he would read things such as: Do not TR through rings as abrasive in rope abrades it. Aluminum holds 3,400 (rough) pounds new but what if he does that anchor to an abraded ring and falls. Theyre meant for "rappelling." Unless they're solid, no-wear stainless steel or titanium i would hope he had the knowledge to back it up.

I do not wish to pursue an argument but if you feel you need to make your opinion clearer please feel free to enlighten me.


marc801


Oct 4, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: [chasetherabbit] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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chasetherabbit wrote:
As for the rings, i was hinting upon him to look them up. I was hoping he would read things such as: Do not TR through rings as abrasive in rope abrades it. Aluminum holds 3,400 (rough) pounds new but what if he does that anchor to an abraded ring and falls. Theyre meant for "rappelling." Unless they're solid, no-wear stainless steel or titanium i would hope he had the knowledge to back it up.
Those are Fixe sport climbing anchors. The ring is welded steel and is intended to be used as shown in the photo* and for lowering with the rope threaded directly through the rings. The slot on the bolt hanger is too small to take most biners. They are not the rolled aluminum rap rings you think they are. The plated steel version is rated at 18kN, stainless at 26kN.


BTW, the photo in the OP comes from a How to Rock Climb site, and is a perfectly adequate top roping anchor. You might want to rethink your pontificating, arrogant responses that are filled with absolutes and rules.


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [marc801] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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Is everyone arguing about top rope anchors on two good bolta again?

Tongue


marc801


Oct 4, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
Is everyone arguing about top rope anchors on two good bolta again?
Sure seems that way, this time with a righteous n00b adding in the "it must always be done this way" meme.


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Re: [marc801] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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Marc801, agreed. The photo above is a sufficient anchor, but my reply on the rings was to the original poster as a reference to find more info. Ive seen many people look at a picture of an anchor and then proceed to apply it to every anchor without really knowing anything. You, an obvious experienced climber know that that anchor has these FIXE bolts, but the beginner does not. He will continue to clip into any rings he sees unless he is informed, which he now is. Mission complete. I agree with the specs you posted on rings but even you should know that worn rings are far weaker, something beginners don't look for. I stand by everything I've said not as rules but as guidelines. There will be situations where you just cant do some of the things I've said, but if i have sparked an interest in discovering what to do when those particular situations arise then i have helped someone stay safer.
The photo above is not a poster child for two bolt anchors, it is, like I've stated, a guideline. There is far more to anchoring than this photo shows. . .


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Re: [marc801] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Sure seems that way, this time with a righteous n00b adding in the "it must always be done this way" meme.

next time im in the bluffs im going to set up a double redundant good ole american death triangle and use that ... perfectly safe for TR, if poor practice on good bolts ...

im going to watch all the 5.7 top rope tough guys come along screaming about how unsafe i am and how i dont know anything ...

just for the hell of it Wink


ncrockclimber


Oct 4, 2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: [chasetherabbit] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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chasetherabbit, you seem to feel very comfortable providing "guidelines" to other climbers and pointing out the errors in their thinking. What is your experience level? How long have you been climbing? Please, tell us a little bit more about yourself so that I can understand where your wealth of knowledge comes from.


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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Everything I've said comes from books. Written fact. Sure, you can set up and old double redundant death triangle and be fine but to teach a new climber that would be stupid. You're in the beginner section gentlemen. Hell, you can set it up on some spinning hangers and cut the belay loop a bit and you'll be fine. But learning that stuff comes with practice. How many of you started on an American triangle? How often do you still do it on multi-pitch routes and hangdog from rusted 70's buttonheads all day or dryvins? Ive given trustable word to keep someone safe. Is it rule? no. But id let him figure that out with experience. And if I'm so arrogant, why are you guys making fun and trying to top me?


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Re: [chasetherabbit] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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i pretty certain this is a troll

feed him at yr own risk Tongue


patto


Oct 4, 2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
chasetherabbit, you seem to feel very comfortable providing "guidelines" to other climbers and pointing out the errors in their thinking. What is your experience level? How long have you been climbing? Please, tell us a little bit more about yourself so that I can understand where your wealth of knowledge comes from.

Seems like he's either read John Longs book or has been 'mentored' by somebody who has.

1. Double bolts.
2. One locking carabiner wouldn't worry me. But 2 is great peace of mind.
3. Damn you John long. Lets not start this.


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 11:04 AM
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I was trying to be helpful to the original poster. i may have come off rude but i know it isnt safe for him to be setting anchors with the questions he asked. I provided him with good word to help and of course i got the, "nuh-uh, you can do this and be fine," response. Sorry i wasted your time... that you responded to.


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [chasetherabbit] Cordellette Anchor Question [In reply to]
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if you really had any relevant climbing experience you would know that the a cord/sling tied SERENE is perfectly safe and in fact is what many if not most guides use for TR anchors ... and is what they teach students

its that simple ... only people who want to show off, complete newbies or the totally anally retentive would argue about the "safeness" of a SERENE anchor on 2 good bolts for TR

TR anchors on bolts aint rocket science ... except to those who want to pretend it is because they cant brag about anything better

Crazy


JimTitt


Oct 4, 2012, 11:23 AM
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The reality is we all think the anchor shown is as good as it gets, and itīs certainly better than nearly all of us use in our daily climbing since most of us belong to the "two draws" school of thought.
Using a sliding-X in a top-rope anchor is the sign of a fool.


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 11:23 AM
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And i agree with that. I used a cordelette the other day on a 3 point anchor. My main issue was that the beginner saw a photo and claimed he was going to use it on every 2 bolt anchor. That's the problem. And if your kid said something like that you'd prolly say,"... well not every 2 bolt anchor." I tried. Forget i said anything.


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 11:26 AM
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Hold on a sec... where did i... its around here somewhere... aHA!!! Her it is. Your pedastel.


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 11:30 AM
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i cant think of any good 2 bolt TR anchors that a good cord length and a tied off knot wouldnt be suitable for in squamish off the top of my head, and i know quite a few of em


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Youve never backed up sketchy bolts before in squamish?


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 11:40 AM
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chasetherabbit wrote:
Youve never backed up sketchy bolts before in squamish?


are you so utterly "unsafe" that you set up TR anchors for newbies on sketchy bolts ... i dont ... if the anchors are sketchy for TR ... walk away

i guess you dont follow yr " Did come off a bit arrogant I'm sure but safety is what were all looking for" rule except for the arrogant part

Wink


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 12:07 PM
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csproul


Oct 4, 2012, 12:13 PM
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chasetherabbit wrote:
Hold on a sec... where did i... its around here somewhere... aHA!!! Her it is. Your pedastel.
You do realize that you are arguing with the person who probably knows more about bolts and anchors than just about anyone on the planet, right? I doubt that many have done more to test anchor theory/performance than Jim.


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 12:23 PM
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chasetherabbit wrote:
... i feel dumber having even talked to you. . . I said nothing about me.

so let me get this straight ... here you are moaning and railing against a standard anchor that guides use and teach all the time simply because you want to show off how much you know and think you need an equalette to TR ... i invite you to go ahead and tell the next people you see with a SERENE anchor that theyre doing it all wrong because theyll simply laugh in yr face while you scream on the intrawebs about how "unsafe" it is

go do some real climbing, not the virtual theoretical toppu roperu tofu guy stuff ... and just maybe youll learn to actually climb something and some technical skills

and if you didnt quite get it ... im laughing at yr virtual face right now Laugh


chasetherabbit


Oct 4, 2012, 12:34 PM
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I was not moaning about the set-up in the pic. 2nd post i said it was fine. I get mad when i see beginners looking at anchor pics and then goin climbing. Laugh all you want. Just tried to get someone to not become accustomed to one anchor. Theres more to it.


bearbreeder


Oct 4, 2012, 12:40 PM
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chasetherabbit wrote:
I was not moaning about the set-up in the pic. 2nd post i said it was fine. I get mad when i see beginners looking at anchor pics and then goin climbing. Laugh all you want. Just tried to get someone to not become accustomed to one anchor. Theres more to it.


thats something you wouldnt know ... as yr running around shouting "UNSAFE ANCHOR, UNSAFE ANCHOR" ...

ever go climbing in an overhung sport climbing area ... can you guess what the "standard" anchor and lower offs are ... youd have a heart attack while screaming at everyone who obviously climbs harder and longer than you ...

Tongue


redlude97


Oct 4, 2012, 3:50 PM
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chasetherabbit wrote:
Redlude97, not all bolts are bomber. And if you send a beginner off to a crag of 50 sport routes with a pre-tied anchor you're an idiot. Do you suggest that this "beginner" disregard equality on double bolted sport routes?
Say, this beginner decides to go ahead to the local sport crag slapping in his same length cordelette at every 2 bolt anchor. Because nobody disagrees with him he assumes its okay. He doesnt check one of the bolts (that had been drilled improperly) and due to the weight he produces upon falling off the direction of pull he rips one bolt out. Sure, there is little to no extension in a cordelette set-up but does that make it okay? If you're gonna TR from a two-bolt anchor with why not just make it an equalette? Safer, long, no extension, and has a wide arc for traversing. (im just gonna stop writing about this here i dnt want to write a text-book)

If the bolts are bomber, a sliding X on a two bolt anchor is the best-known method. "It is better to dynamically equalize the load on the gear [bolts in this situation] in an effort to prevent failure than to anticipate failure and mitigate the consequence of extension." The extension is longer but according to studies done by John Long, Craig Conally and a member of Rock & Ice magazine, true shock loading with the sliding x cannot occur when there is dynamic rope in the system. Review pages 159-160 in "Climbing Anchors" by John Long and Bob gaines: "Granted, you avoid building anchors that could result in really long extension, but there's little cause to fear ordinary set-ups."

As for the rings, i was hinting upon him to look them up. I was hoping he would read things such as: Do not TR through rings as abrasive in rope abrades it. Aluminum holds 3,400 (rough) pounds new but what if he does that anchor to an abraded ring and falls. Theyre meant for "rappelling." Unless they're solid, no-wear stainless steel or titanium i would hope he had the knowledge to back it up.

I do not wish to pursue an argument but if you feel you need to make your opinion clearer please feel free to enlighten me.
Your go to is a sliding-x for TR? Either the bolts are bomber, in which case anything from a cordellete, quad, or just two draws will be sufficient or one or both bolts are suspect, in which case as bearbreader pointed out, you don't TR off them. You certainly don't use a sliding-x which has massive extension potential. BTW, not everything in a book is fact. Long's assertion that shock loading isn't real has been proven to not be true. Take a look for some of the discussions on the subject in old threads here.

As for the ring anchors, its already been addressed above. You can't clip most biners through the hanger, and the rings are solid and are meant to be clipped. They actually wear well even with lowering because the wear isn't concentrated in one spot like on chains.

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