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sbaclimber


Oct 11, 2012, 3:21 AM
Post #26 of 63 (3438 views)
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Re: [billcoe_] trust these cams [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
olderic wrote:
I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.
I've never been there but thought the same just based on the photo. CLEARLY NOT A GOOD LEAD FOR A NEW LEADER.
robbovius posted a couple of vids that show the whole route:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6yo7FGXXgM

After watching the video, will have to agree, doesn't look particularly good for a beginning leader.


jt512


Oct 11, 2012, 10:30 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Someone tested the Ukrainian Gear4rocks cams and they all tested better than advertised. HOWEVER, with so many better choices (think Metolius, Wired Bliss, BD Camalots) why get them?

So at least some of their cams were good. However, when I think of the phrase "has high standards of quality control," the phrase "manufactured in Ukraine" does not come to mind. I mean, they might be perfectly good, but how do you know? Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

If you decide to buy these camps, I would suggest not climbing with them until you've thoroughly bounce tested them, or better yet, figure out a way to test them to half their rated strength using a fuse.

Jay

*Other than the US.


rmsusa


Oct 11, 2012, 10:43 AM
Post #28 of 63 (3401 views)
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Re: [jt512] trust these cams [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.


jt512


Oct 11, 2012, 3:01 PM
Post #29 of 63 (3372 views)
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Re: [rmsusa] trust these cams [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?


USnavy


Oct 11, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #30 of 63 (3341 views)
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Re: [jt512] trust these cams [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?
Not much. The old Aliens were CE certified and I dont think I need to go there on how they should not have been certified for anything by anyone.


USnavy


Oct 11, 2012, 8:41 PM
Post #31 of 63 (3338 views)
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Re: [rmsusa] trust these cams [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.
That CE stamp, and even the UIAA stamp does not mean much when it comes to quality control. Those stamps mean that the climbing product meets minimal strength requirements and a few other requirements. However, CE and the UIAA only test a few samples. In the case of ropes, the UIAA tests three ropes. Three ropes and you have yourself a UIAA stamp for that model - that's it.

In order to get a good measure of quality control, you need to test a reasonable number (say 1%) of samples from EVERY batch that is manufactured. Even then, it is possible a few bad units can go through. That is why companies like Metolius proof test EVERY cam they sell to 50% of its rated load before they let it leave the factory. Top notch overhead lifting equipment manufacturers do the same. They proof test every product to about 200% of its SWL before it leaves the factor. That is what is required for true guaranteed quality control.

Another indicator of good quality control is a 3-sigma certification that is verified every single batch. Because of how the 3-sigma formula works, in order to obtain a respectable 3-sigma breaking strength, the product needs to have a low standard deviation. Low standard deviations are really hard to achieve if a manufacturer has low quality control on their product(s).


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 13, 2012, 1:13 PM)


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2012, 9:20 PM
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I would love to know the full story on those Aliens. I have Aliens that were bought prior to those batches and still take regular whips on them.

Wonder what caused the big change over all.

The cams in Question, I trust them, but prefer my BD. I trust them because I have used some other people's and falling on them.

In climbing, you have to decide for yourself is you trust the gear. Even a Camelot isn't helpful if you don't trust Black Diamond cams for what ever reason. Trust is Psychological. If you don't trust the equipment, you won't climb well.

For the passed few months I've been taking loads of lead fall on quick-draws that are CE rated and not UIAA. I trust them, they are holding up great.


USnavy


Oct 12, 2012, 2:49 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] trust these cams [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
I would love to know the full story on those Aliens.
Well I dont know the "full" full story, but I know the important part. The important part is that the CCH postrecall Aliens had low quality control. Some people were falling on them and the maincable was pulling out of the head. The issue was that CCH did not have an appropriate solution for ensuring the solder fully penetrated its way deep into the head, which created a safe looking braze, but with critically low strength. If CCH would have done what Metolius does and proof test every sample, they would have caught that issue early on well before all those bad Aliens made their way into the market.


shockabuku


Oct 12, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #34 of 63 (3266 views)
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Re: [jt512] trust these cams [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?


guangzhou


Oct 12, 2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: [USnavy] trust these cams [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
I would love to know the full story on those Aliens.
Well I dont know the "full" full story, but I know the important part. The important part is that the CCH postrecall Aliens had low quality control. Some people were falling on them and the maincable was pulling out of the head. The issue was that CCH did not have an appropriate solution for ensuring the solder fully penetrated its way deep into the head, which created a safe looking braze, but with critically low strength. If CCH would have done what Metolius does and proof test every sample, they would have caught that issue early on well before all those bad Aliens made their way into the market.

Again, I'd like to know the whole story. For years, CCH Aliens were fine, than all of a sudden, they were loads of problems. (Pun intended)


jt512


Oct 12, 2012, 11:51 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] trust these cams [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay


JimTitt


Oct 15, 2012, 3:40 AM
Post #37 of 63 (3195 views)
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jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking, most companies using a combination of ISO9001 (or other) and an independantly audited internal QC system. This is a legal requirement under the CE marking directive.


USnavy


Oct 15, 2012, 4:58 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] trust these cams [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking
Why not, I dident say anything incorrect. My proof is the CCH Aliens. They were CE certified yet just about everyone agrees they had complete shit quality control. I also recall being able to write your own CE certification and then testing your products your own standards. I think you mentioned that. Plus, it is well know that the CE logo is easily and legally defrauded. For example, you can put a CE logo on a box implying the item in the box is certified, but in fact the only thing that is certified is the box itself. Another example would be putting the CE logo on a product implying the product is CE certified for its intended use, but in fact it is certified for some bullshit non-related function such as non-toxicity.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 15, 2012, 5:05 AM)


JimTitt


Oct 15, 2012, 5:24 AM
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking
Why not, I dident say anything incorrect. My proof is the CCH Aliens. They were CE certified yet just about everyone agrees they had complete shit quality control. I also recall being able to write your own CE certification and then testing your products your own standards. I think you mentioned that. Plus, it is well know that the CE logo is easily and legally defrauded. For example, you can put a CE logo on a box implying the item in the box is certified, but in fact the only thing that is certified is the box itself. Another example would be putting the CE logo on a product implying the product is CE certified for its intended use, but in fact it is certified for some bullshit non-related function such as non-toxicity.

If there is no standard for a product you can write your own, the QC part however is not for you to invent!
You other two examples show you lack of understanding of the system, along with the CE mark you have to put which standard it is tested to (the EN number after the CE mark) which tells you what itīs intended purpose is and to which standard it conforms.
You really think that the entire EU, itīs legal system and product certification system is run by people who are completely stupid?


jt512


Oct 15, 2012, 6:58 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

I guess I succumbed to confirmation bias.

Jay


Partner cracklover


Oct 16, 2012, 8:37 AM
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jt512 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

I guess I succumbed to confirmation bias.

Jay

That being said, for US companies, CE really only has teeth to the extent the company plans to sell the gear in question in the EU. Otherwise, there is no enforcement the EU bodies could apply that would be meaningful to the manufacturer.

BTW, IIRC, CCH had a CE stamp that got stripped by the governing body after the whole shitstorm of popping heads went public.

GO


JimTitt


Oct 16, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Naturally enough, the CE system has no meaning or relevance in the USA, no enforcement and may even contradict your own national standards. It is enforced at the point of entry to the EU or thhe point of sale within the EU (and EFTA excluding Switzerland).
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans? Sly


Partner cracklover


Oct 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
Naturally enough, the CE system has no meaning or relevance in the USA, no enforcement and may even contradict your own national standards. It is enforced at the point of entry to the EU or thhe point of sale within the EU (and EFTA excluding Switzerland).
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans? Sly

LOL. Yeah, just like we have a professional organization for climbers, one that analyzes accidents, does professional testing and statistics. Oh wait, here we do that on rc.com? Ouch.

GPirate


rmsusa


Oct 16, 2012, 2:25 PM
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In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

Well .... it's nice that the Euros pay for it. Here in the US, we tend to put our standards money into economically and systemically important stuff and leave the sports to whoever (if anybody) claims to run them.

To the extent that the EN norms are included in ISO, they're for international use by signatories. The US is a signatory and ANSI is a member of ISO. Here in the US we contribute some standards to ISO for stuff like networks, information interchange and medical equipment interfaces (I remember writing standards for computer graphics interfaces some years ago for ANSI and ISO). The Euros make valuable contributions for, say, wine and cheese origin labeling and the exact distance between soccer goals. Sly

In a global world, standards promulgated by an area with 500MM consumers have global effects. ANSI has similar effects on the Eurozone. I suspect that the majority of manufacturers have aspirations to sell in the world's largest economic zones, so they have no choice but to comply. ISO is the global attempt to make sure that standards aren't simply trade barriers and that manufacturers aren't caught up in a maze of conflicting standards. ISO promotes global, uniform standards. To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.

Given your background, I suspect you're familiar with the subject.


USnavy


Oct 16, 2012, 3:22 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 16, 2012, 3:26 PM)


JimTitt


Oct 16, 2012, 11:44 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

Well .... it's nice that the Euros pay for it. Here in the US, we tend to put our standards money into economically and systemically important stuff and leave the sports to whoever (if anybody) claims to run them.

To the extent that the EN norms are included in ISO, they're for international use by signatories. The US is a signatory and ANSI is a member of ISO. Here in the US we contribute some standards to ISO for stuff like networks, information interchange and medical equipment interfaces (I remember writing standards for computer graphics interfaces some years ago for ANSI and ISO). The Euros make valuable contributions for, say, wine and cheese origin labeling and the exact distance between soccer goals. Sly

In a global world, standards promulgated by an area with 500MM consumers have global effects. ANSI has similar effects on the Eurozone. I suspect that the majority of manufacturers have aspirations to sell in the world's largest economic zones, so they have no choice but to comply. ISO is the global attempt to make sure that standards aren't simply trade barriers and that manufacturers aren't caught up in a maze of conflicting standards. ISO promotes global, uniform standards. To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.

Given your background, I suspect you're familiar with the subject.

You are blurring the distinction between CE and EN which is a mistake. European Norms (EN) are widely integrated into the ISO as are ANSI standards, both being equivelant industrial standards systems.
CE marking shows a product conforms to the laws relating to those products in the EU member states. The two are completely different and always will be unless the US is going to start accepting legislation imposed on them by the EU.


JimTitt


Oct 17, 2012, 12:02 AM
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USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.


USnavy


Oct 17, 2012, 12:56 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.


guangzhou


Oct 17, 2012, 3:19 AM
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.

I think you answered you own question.


USnavy


Oct 17, 2012, 4:03 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] trust these cams [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.

I think you answered you own question.
No I dident. My take was that Jim was saying that CE certifies that a product is safe for use. I am saying that if products have been certified as safe before hitting the market, they should not need to be recalled. The mere fact that they do get recalled proves the CE certification does not tell us much; again, assuming the purpose of CE certifications are to certify safety.

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