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The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device
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saloh


Oct 26, 2012, 5:24 AM
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The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device
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I came up with the idea of using a rappel ring and locking carabiner for a belay device. The rappel ring acts as the ATC basket and the wire gate carabiner keeps the rappel ring from getting away from the locking carabiner. In my opinion it is safe and it works well. A little sticky/tricky for lead belaying and rappeling but great if in a pinch for a device when one is not available. It also seems to be somewhat self locking. Please let me know what you think about it.


csproul


Oct 26, 2012, 6:27 AM
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Re: [saloh] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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saloh wrote:
I came up with the idea of using a rappel ring and locking carabiner for a belay device. The rappel ring acts as the ATC basket and the wire gate carabiner keeps the rappel ring from getting away from the locking carabiner. In my opinion it is safe and it works well. A little sticky/tricky for lead belaying and rappeling but great if in a pinch for a device when one is not available. It also seems to be somewhat self locking. Please let me know what you think about it.[image]
The use of a rap ring and a locker for a belay device is not new. It is something I have seen now and then over the last ~20 years, and has certainly been done long before that. I have never seen the extra use of the wire-gate to keep the ring from moving. Having tried this, I'd much rather use a Munter to belay and make a carabiner brake to rappel.


rsmillbern


Oct 26, 2012, 6:29 AM
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Re: [saloh] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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I think a munter hitch would be a better option if you don't/lose your belay device. Just my 2cents...


rsmillbern


Oct 26, 2012, 6:30 AM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
saloh wrote:
I came up with the idea of using a rappel ring and locking carabiner for a belay device. The rappel ring acts as the ATC basket and the wire gate carabiner keeps the rappel ring from getting away from the locking carabiner. In my opinion it is safe and it works well. A little sticky/tricky for lead belaying and rappeling but great if in a pinch for a device when one is not available. It also seems to be somewhat self locking. Please let me know what you think about it.[image]
The use of a rap ring and a locker for a belay device is not new. It is something I have seen now and then over the last ~20 years, and has certainly been done long before that. I have never seen the extra use of the wire-gate to keep the ring from moving. Having tried this, I'd much rather use a Munter to belay and make a carabiner brake to rappel.

ha! I am too slow.... what he said :-)


acorneau


Oct 26, 2012, 9:55 AM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
saloh wrote:
I came up with the idea of using a rappel ring and locking carabiner for a belay device.
The use of a rap ring and a locker for a belay device is not new. It is something I have seen now and then over the last ~20 years, and has certainly been done long before that.

I believe a single link of the right-sized chain was a popular option back in the day.

Edit to add: http://storrick.cnc.net/...ages/Sticht0615.html


(This post was edited by acorneau on Oct 26, 2012, 9:58 AM)


marc801


Oct 26, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
saloh wrote:
I came up with the idea of using a rappel ring and locking carabiner for a belay device. The rappel ring acts as the ATC basket and the wire gate carabiner keeps the rappel ring from getting away from the locking carabiner. In my opinion it is safe and it works well. A little sticky/tricky for lead belaying and rappeling but great if in a pinch for a device when one is not available. It also seems to be somewhat self locking. Please let me know what you think about it.[image]
The use of a rap ring and a locker for a belay device is not new. It is something I have seen now and then over the last ~20 years, and has certainly been done long before that. I have never seen the extra use of the wire-gate to keep the ring from moving. Having tried this, I'd much rather use a Munter to belay and make a carabiner brake to rappel.
Also, it needs to be a solid steel rap ring - not the rolled aluminum ones that can wear through surprisingly fast, severely compromising strength and possibly leaving a very sharp edge.


acorneau


Oct 26, 2012, 1:26 PM
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Re: [marc801] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Also, it needs to be a solid steel rap ring - not the rolled aluminum ones that can wear through surprisingly fast, severely compromising strength and possibly leaving a very sharp edge.

Perhaps he was considering option #3, the thick forged aluminum rings such this one from OP:



... but it states on the website:

"This device is NOT designed to be used as a rappel or belay device (e.g. ATC, SBGII, Figure-8 or any other friction device). It is intended solely as a hardware alternative to bail-out slings, webbing and cord."

Pirate


bearbreeder


Oct 27, 2012, 12:39 PM
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Re: [saloh] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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munter ... biner brake ...

proven techniques used for decades ... youll likely already have the gear anyways


Mark_Hudon


Oct 27, 2012, 4:45 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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If this was 1960, that would be a great, wonderful and new idea. Today, 52 years later, I'd have to ask, Why?


chris


Oct 30, 2012, 5:53 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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If the OP's intent is to have an alternative that doesn't kink of the rope like a munter, then how about a garda hitch? It only requires two biners of the same make/model. In my experience, non-lockers are preferred only because the collars on locking biners can get in the way, and carabiners with more of an i-beam shape, like Camp's or BD's wire-gates, work great.


csproul


Oct 30, 2012, 6:36 AM
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Re: [chris] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
If the OP's intent is to have an alternative that doesn't kink of the rope like a munter, then how about a garda hitch? It only requires two biners of the same make/model. In my experience, non-lockers are preferred only because the collars on locking biners can get in the way, and carabiners with more of an i-beam shape, like Camp's or BD's wire-gates, work great.
Yeah, except a Garda hitch essentially allows easy pull in one direction only. Fine if you need to haul or ascend. I don't know about you, but when belaying I consider it essential to easily be able to pull rope in both directions. Can't say that I've tried it, but it doesn't sound like a very good belay method to me.


csproul


Oct 30, 2012, 7:41 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
If this was 1960, that would be a great, wonderful and new idea. Today, 52 years later, I'd have to ask, Why?
Mark, I think we're largely talking about a lost/dropped belay/rap device situation here, not as a primary method of rappelling or belaying. If you had no device with you, what better method(s) than a Munter for belaying and a biner brake for rappelling? Those are the ones that I know, does anything work better?


JimTitt


Oct 30, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
If this was 1960, that would be a great, wonderful and new idea. Today, 52 years later, I'd have to ask, Why?
Mark, I think we're largely talking about a lost/dropped belay/rap device situation here, not as a primary method of rappelling or belaying. If you had no device with you, what better method(s) than a Munter for belaying and a biner brake for rappelling? Those are the ones that I know, does anything work better?

Ive never even seen a rap ring in 40 years of climbing, guess us Euros had to invent the Italian Hitch!


petsfed


Oct 30, 2012, 8:42 AM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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I'd say the biggest argument against the munther for rappelling is the twisting it does to the rope. Not an issue for 1 rappel, quite an issue for 10 rappels.

The rap-ring technique also has an advantage over the carabiner brake since it uses a lot less equipment. Of course, that's only a concern if you need those crabs to leave at rap anchors on the way down. I'd prefer the carabiner brake over a rap ring, if only because I know the carabiner can take it.

So, good to have in the tool box, but shouldn't be the only thing in the toolbox.


bearbreeder


Oct 30, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Re: [petsfed] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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the problem with the rap ring is that you need to bring one up ... and not one of those light aluminum hollow ones either, but something beefy

chances are youll more likely have 2 solid gates with you, or failing that a biner big enough for a munter

ive never climbed with a rap ring ... if im at the point where i need it, ill leave an old biner or two

as to twisting ... it should only be a once in a blue moon emergency anyways ... itll teach you never to drop yr device again ;)


petsfed


Oct 30, 2012, 3:26 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
as to twisting ... it should only be a once in a blue moon emergency anyways ... itll teach you never to drop yr device again ;)

You misinterpreted: if you only have one pitch to rappel before you're back on the ground, then the twisting due to a munther is a non-issue. If you've got 10, that twisting may lead to a stuck rope before you make it down.

Also, when I carry rap rings, I carry ones that will last the duration. They're not just bail gear, they may be "this is a popular rap station, so I might be replacing an old anchor sling with a good new one". There's a fifty cent different in price at REI, so I get the ones that are up to the task.


bearbreeder


Oct 30, 2012, 5:35 PM
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Re: [petsfed] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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i just carry an old biner or two ... you can usually find old solid gates as booty around popular climbing areas ... and theyll even work as a biner Wink

but each to his/her own ... as long as we arent carrying seagull bashers (hexes) just to use em as a rap/belay device Tongue


Mark_Hudon


Oct 30, 2012, 8:27 PM
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Re: [csproul] The use of a locking carabiner, rappel ring, and wire gate carabiner for belay device [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
If this was 1960, that would be a great, wonderful and new idea. Today, 52 years later, I'd have to ask, Why?
Mark, I think we're largely talking about a lost/dropped belay/rap device situation here, not as a primary method of rappelling or belaying.

Oh, In that case, Good Idea, although I haven't carried a rap ring with me in the last 30 years or so. A Munter seems fine to get out of a bind, both for rapping and belaying. I could belay someone, and rappel using a carabiner brake fashioned out of my wiregate biners. It wouldn't be optimal but it would do in a pinch. I think everyone should go through these little "what if" exercises every now and then to keep the mind open to ideas and sharp with solutions.


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