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JasonsDrivingForce
Nov 1, 2012, 8:59 PM
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I definitely agree that padded floors are not a solution for making roped climbing safer. However, are padded floors a good alternate for large crash pads for bouldering?
I have seen several gyms switch to using a pathless padded floor and ditching the large crash pads altogether. Is that safer? Will large indoor crash pads prevent broken bones like the one I witnessed over padded floors?
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bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2012, 9:16 PM
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the problem with that as mentioned is that it can set a bad precedent ... climbers start taking things for granted because they know there is more "gear" to save their azzes
im not saying its right or wrong for the gyms ... but once a climber moves outside, the habits will tend to carry over for the first part ... will you have big cushy pads outside?
at the end of the day nothing is foolproof ... its up to the climber and staff to insure that there are no mistakes, and if there is something went very wrong on someone's end ...
or in the new case of new climbers who dont know any better ... more onus is on the gym IMO ...
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dagibbs
Nov 2, 2012, 3:48 AM
Post #28 of 45
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: I have seen several gyms switch to using a pathless padded floor and ditching the large crash pads altogether. Is that safer? Will large indoor crash pads prevent broken bones like the one I witnessed over padded floors?
My local gym switched away from crash pads to a padded floor. I asked the manager about this, and he said that in his experience (and he is quite experienced, travels as a problem-setter, and previously bouldered at the top of the national level in Canada for a few years), the most common injury he'd seen was people rolling and breaking or badly spraining their ankles on the edges of crash pads. He felt that a proper floor, rather than movable pads, was by far the safer choice.
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cracklover
Nov 2, 2012, 3:44 PM
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skellie wrote: The number of near-misses I've seen in MOST gyms I've been to scares the crap out of me. At my current gym, Stone Age in Albuquerque, I regularly have tiny little kids running under me while I'm bouldering. I actually tweaked my back last week as I fell and rolled around in mid-air to miss one of them. I attempted to calmly confront one of the "coaches" about this and he got all defensive and argued with me in front of the kids. Most of them have the attitude that "they're just kids, they don't know better." To which I reply, "Well then they shouldn't be doing a safety-oriented sport like climbing." ALSO, the "coaches" regularly have the kids warm-up, or have "coaching sessions" LITERALLY right under the roof with people sport climbing ABOVE THEM! I've seen quite a number of climbers whip off that roof and come within 6 ft. of the ground. Why not take the kids to a SAFE part of the gym?
That's horrendous. I've never seen anything like that in any of the gyms I've climbed in over the years. If it were my local gym, I would make a big stink about it. And if the owner didn't change things, I'd go to the parents of those kids to inform them that the gym is willfully putting them in harm's way.
GO
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skellie
Nov 2, 2012, 3:56 PM
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I actually sent the owner an email right after I posted this, and he said they'll discuss it at their next meeting, and he'd like to talk to me more about it. I was impressed with the prompt reply, I'm just surprised these problems hadn't been brought up already!
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wonderwoman
Nov 2, 2012, 5:46 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
People have made the same arguments about wearing seat belts, driving larger cars, wearing helmets (in a wide variety of sports), and even handing out condoms. Somehow I doubt that padded floors promote reckless behavior. However, they are a lot softer on the skull upon impact.
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TradEddie
Nov 3, 2012, 12:22 AM
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Our gym seems diligent about training, and follows up with regular observation of belayer and climber behavior, yet I know of at least three people who would probably not be alive today if the floor hadn't been padded.
On the other hand, when I started climbing there, the floors were just that loose recycled tire rubber. Bouldering over that rubber was so nice, the landings were great, but once they changed to a padded floor with additional mats, after a few close calls, I stopped bouldering.
Eliminate all seatbelts, airbags etc on cars, they instill a false sense of security; instead, put a foot long steel spike in the center of every steering wheel...
TE
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Marylandclimber
Nov 6, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Why was she using a carabiner on her harness in the first place?
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guangzhou
Nov 7, 2012, 2:58 AM
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Because automatic belay devices are equipped and designed to be used with them.
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NewZealander
Mar 4, 2013, 6:35 AM
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It was only a matter of time before someone died in New Zealand. Accidents:
•2006: Non-fatal accident in October 2006 involving a climbing wall facility. The action resulted in a conviction, fine of $8,000 and reparation of $1,374. (NZ Department of Labour Stocktake)
•2008: Non-fatal accident in December 2008 at an indoor rock climbing facility. A guilty plea has been entered and sentencing is scheduled for February 2010. (NZ Department of Labour Stocktake)
•2010: 13 year old girl on a school trip, fell 8.8m while top rope rock climbing at an indoor climbing wall. She badly fractured her ankle and cracked her pelvis. (NZ OSH: Hazard Management Bulletin)
•2012: 14 year old girl (my daugher) falls 4 metres onto bare concrete at the ‘Rock House’ Mount Maunganui, resulting in a broken hip plus five breaks and ligament damage in foot. (Bay of Plenty Times Article)
•2013: Death at Tree Adventures. Man dies falling from ropes course, 3 March 2013. http://www.3news.co.nz/Default.aspx?TabId=423&articleID=288796&ref=RLrotator&ce2637=1#comment
People conveniently forget about the months and months of rehabilitation these accidents cause, not to mention the next few years in which doctors will need to keep checking on my child (the 14 year old) who may still require a complete hip replacement!
New Zealand draft indoor rock climbing guidelines have just come out for public consultation until 15 March 2013. They can be found here: http://www.supportadventure.co.nz/activity-safety-guidelines/current-asgs
What is also not good enough is that the Ambulance Service and ACC do not report accidents directly to the Department of Labour due to the Privacy Act so therefore DOL cannot build up a case history of an unsafe place. I have been told that DOL often find out about accidents through the newspaper. In my daughters case, I myself phoned the DOL to report the accident so they could investigate.
An indoor rock climbing/climbing on artificial structures industry symposium is being held in Palmerston North, New Zealand, on Friday 8 March 2013.
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Syd
Mar 4, 2013, 11:10 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: Accidents will happen and reasonable procedures to mitigate the results are just common sense.
Unfortunately common sense is often uncommon. At the Rockhouse indoor gym, Sydney Australia, unleashed dogs are permitted to run around inside the gym. Try belaying with a large dog attacking you ! Just nuts !
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theextremist04
Mar 5, 2013, 5:51 AM
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I'm truly sorry about your daughter, but five accidents in seven years seems well within the bounds of being reasonable. Things are going to happen, Murphy's Law still prevails.
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NewZealander
Mar 5, 2013, 6:54 AM
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You quite obviously don’t know all the facts surrounding my daughter’s case. Murphy’s Law is one thing; negligence is another thing entirely – especially when children are involved. My point was that these are the only cases that have been officially reported. I’m hearing about many other cases that have gone unreported due to the archaic system in place.
As a commenter on the death that just occurred wrote: Whether or not these high wire activity businesses provide a good briefing is only partially relevant. The thing is, your loved one (often your child!) will be high in the trees having to make hundreds of correct decisions throughout the course so as to keep themselves clipped into the wire system. They will not be supervised whilst they do this by staff - they are on their own. Your child will be nervous, excited, becoming physically tired, distracted by their mates - so many things to lead to forgetting to clip in and slipping. They are on their own and I find it terrifying to think about.
I worked as an adventure cave guide and ropes guide for years and you are absolutely supervising each participant to make sure they are clipped into the safety systems. Would be the same with bungy etc. Then along comes these high wire forest businesses and suddenly it's somehow OK to send the clients off into incredibly risky situations high in the trees on the premise they will remember to clip in because they have been told too! http://www.3news.co.nz/Man-dies-falling-from-ropes-course/tabid/423/articleID/288796/Default.aspx?ref=RLrotator
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lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 6, 2013, 7:04 PM
Post #39 of 45
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NewZealander wrote: You quite obviously don’t know all the facts surrounding my daughter’s case. Murphy’s Law is one thing; negligence is another thing entirely – especially when children are involved. My point was that these are the only cases that have been officially reported. I’m hearing about many other cases that have gone unreported due to the archaic system in place.
I am very sorry about your daughter, and I hope her recovery goes well. Obviously, we only know what was publicly reported.
NewZealander wrote: As a commenter on the death that just occurred wrote: Whether or not these high wire activity businesses provide a good briefing is only partially relevant. The thing is, your loved one (often your child!) will be high in the trees having to make hundreds of correct decisions throughout the course so as to keep themselves clipped into the wire system. They will not be supervised whilst they do this by staff - they are on their own. Your child will be nervous, excited, becoming physically tired, distracted by their mates - so many things to lead to forgetting to clip in and slipping. They are on their own and I find it terrifying to think about. I worked as an adventure cave guide and ropes guide for years and you are absolutely supervising each participant to make sure they are clipped into the safety systems. Would be the same with bungy etc. Then along comes these high wire forest businesses and suddenly it's somehow OK to send the clients off into incredibly risky situations high in the trees on the premise they will remember to clip in because they have been told too! http://www.3news.co.nz/...t.aspx?ref=RLrotator
The death didn't involve a child, it involved a MAN, if I understand correctly? Anybody's accidental death is very sad, but... at some point people are expected to take the responsibility for their own actions and their own safety.
Nobody forced this guy, or any of the other people who were at this popular "high-wire playground" to go there. None of the equipment malfunctioned. No cables snapped, no weight-bearing structures collapsed. He made a mistake that he was cautioned against, and he paid dearly for it. It is very sad for his family. But it is not anybody's fault.
This is no different than driving too fast on an icy road, or forgetting to unplug the hair drier before dropping it into a tub of water, or neglecting to change the batteries in the smoke detector. These are all the things that we have been told we need to pay attention to, and are expected to do without someone holding our hand every day and checking that we actually are being safe, and all of them are potentially fatal in some circumstances.
What would you like to happen? Take a guide with every person who gets onto these via ferrata-type activities, so the guide would be responsible into clipping every client in, and double-checking?
As a parent I understand the anxiety a parent feels when the kids participate in a somewhat risky extra-curricular activity. But, as a parent, you also have the right and the responsibility to keep your child from participating in something you view as truly unsafe, and also you have the responsibility of teaching them that safety should be taken seriously.
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NewZealander
Sep 13, 2013, 12:41 AM
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In October 2012 a fall of 4 metres onto a concrete floor during a rock climbing exercise at The Rock House in Triton Avenue, Mount Maunganui, New Zealand, left my daughter with injuries constituting ‘severe harm’ resulting in her confinement to a wheelchair for four months. This is our journey.
http://boppisces.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/rock-house-blues-by-debbie-mccauley/
(This post was edited by NewZealander on Sep 13, 2013, 4:02 AM)
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NewZealander
Oct 22, 2013, 12:51 AM
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And yet another: Turangi firm fined for climbing wall fall [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11143647&ref=rss]
(This post was edited by NewZealander on Oct 22, 2013, 12:52 AM)
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lena_chita
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Oct 22, 2013, 5:23 PM
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sackfulobadgers
Oct 27, 2013, 1:28 AM
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I assume people don't know this but you can't sue for negligence in New Zealand. While you can argue whether that's good or bad it does lead to more accidents, the workplace injury and death rate is around 4 times higher in NZ than Aus.
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NewZealander
Oct 29, 2015, 4:37 AM
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11534547
WORKSAFE NZ has apologised to a Tauranga family after a teenager was unfairly blamed for an accident that left her in a wheelchair for four months. Three years after Sophie McCauley fell 4m from a Mount Maunganui indoor rock wall, her mother Debbie McCauley has uncovered the truth about the botched investigation done by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (now WorkSafe).
A spokesperson told the Bay of Plenty Times Weekend the investigation "did not adequately examine the health and safety legal responsibilities of the climbing centre and contained inconsistent conclusions as to culpability. We also apologised for the additional stress that must have been placed on the McCauley family as the investigation report appears to have unfairly attributed blame for the accident to Sophie. There was no evidence that Sophie was to blame for the accident."
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