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healyje


Nov 15, 2012, 4:09 PM
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Re: [Khoi] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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That ship has come and gone so many times as to be a joke in the industry as is starting companies, racking up payables, and bailing to do it serially. If you've missed the endemic plagiarism all along then either you weren't around, weren't paying attention, or were blind.


Khoi


Nov 15, 2012, 4:17 PM
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Re: [healyje] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
That ship has come and gone so many times as to be a joke in the industry as is starting companies, racking up payables, and bailing to do it serially. If you've missed the endemic plagiarism all along then either you weren't around, weren't paying attention, or were blind.

I did not ask about the bolded part, as that is not been brought up in this thread.

I am asking about the charges against Mad Rock of plagiarism. It's not that I don't believe you; I simply am not aware, but would like to be informed.

I didn't get into climbing until May of 2007, so I haven't been around that long. Since then, I have only used La Sportiva and Scarpa climbing shoes - nothing from Mad Rock.

What did I miss or not notice?


guangzhou


Nov 15, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Re: [Khoi] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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Khoi wrote:
healyje wrote:
That ship has come and gone so many times as to be a joke in the industry as is starting companies, racking up payables, and bailing to do it serially. If you've missed the endemic plagiarism all along then either you weren't around, weren't paying attention, or were blind.

I did not ask about the bolded part, as that is not been brought up in this thread.

I am asking about the charges against Mad Rock of plagiarism. It's not that I don't believe you; I simply am not aware, but would like to be informed.

I didn't get into climbing until May of 2007, so I haven't been around that long. Since then, I have only used La Sportiva and Scarpa climbing shoes - nothing from Mad Rock.

What did I miss or not notice?

Let's start with the history and development of climbing shoe lines.


USnavy


Nov 16, 2012, 1:05 AM
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Re: [healyje] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
USnavy wrote:
healyje wrote:
USnavy wrote:
It seems Climb X has reached a new low. Not only are they steeling ideas from Mad Rock, but apparently now Petzl too. What a joke...Crazy

You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that this is somehow new behavior or behavior exhibited by only one of these two parties. You clearly haven't been following along.
I have been following along, and I am aware that companies like DMM have ripped off designes from other companies like Black Diamond. But there is a big difference between taking a design and improving or modifying it and simply copying an entire product line. Climb X is not taking one product and improving on it, they are simply making cookie cutter replicas for every product they sell - big difference. They are the only "company" in the industry that has a 100% all fake and copied product line. No other company rips off more designs than they do.

You're still operating under the delusion that behavior isn't common to both parties
It is not a delusion. How many products do you see on Petzl's website that are illegal copies? Name a few. Actually, pick any brand that has at least a 25% illegally copied innovatory line.

I am well aware that companies copy a few products here and there and slightly change the design to avoid getting sued. But to say that climbing equipment manufacturers regularly copy entire product lines illegally, such as Climb X did, is simply incorrect. Again, I ask for an example if you believe otherwise. The closest I can think of would be Trango's version of Rock Empire's Comet cams. But even then, they modified the design a bit and from what I remember they had a contract allowing the product to be copied.

Furthermore, lets say you are correct. Say companies do illegal copy entire product lines regularly. So what? So then because it is normal I guess that makes it okay and my dislike for Climb X is not valid because their actions are only "normal?"


(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 16, 2012, 2:35 PM)


USnavy


Nov 16, 2012, 1:08 AM
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Re: [Khoi] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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Khoi wrote:
healyje wrote:
That ship has come and gone so many times as to be a joke in the industry as is starting companies, racking up payables, and bailing to do it serially. If you've missed the endemic plagiarism all along then either you weren't around, weren't paying attention, or were blind.


I am asking about the charges against Mad Rock of plagiarism. It's not that I don't believe you; I simply am not aware, but would like to be informed.
Against Climb X, not Mad Rock. Mad Rock was the plaintiff/ victim.

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/...against-climb-x-gear

The Case of Mad Rock vs. Climb X:

Joe Garland was a Marketing and Sales Manager for Mad Rock during the years of 2002-2009. During his tenure, Garland attended trade shows and over saw the in-house sales staff. In his position at Mad Rock, Garland was allegedly privy to classified information including athlete contacts, business contracts, patent information, and overall company branding standards. He worked for the company from 2002-2009, then in 2010 he departed to pursue new ventures. Upon Garland’s departure, Mad Rock alledges that his desk was cleared out and allegedly a lap top computer was found to be missing. The hard drive of the computer allegedly contained sensitive customer information, as well as photographs of Mad Rock’s products and other proprietary information, including their graphic design and branding standards. The alleged computer was never recovered.

Garland reappeared on the climbing scene months later and launched a new climbing company called Climb X, which was registered in Canada as Climb-X Sports Inc. The new company that Garland formed had undeniably striking similarities to Garland’s past employer Mad Rock. The newly released Climb X ads depicted product photos which are identical to Mad Rock products.



(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 16, 2012, 1:11 AM)


rmsusa


Nov 16, 2012, 9:12 AM
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Re: [maldaly] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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Good move. Me too.


maldaly


Nov 16, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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USNavy,

Trango never ripped off or copied any designs from Rock Empire. Here's the story: You almost got it right.

(My old-age memory is not what it used to be so I may have some dates and product names wrong here. I don't have acess to the Trango files any more so I can't verify.)

When I first met Jindrich Hudecek in 1991, he had just started a line of retail stores in Czech. Remember, the Iron Curtain had just fallen in 1989 so this was a whole new world for these guys. They had started Hudy Sports (Hudy is Jindrich's nickname) and had three stores, two in Prague and one in Decin. They are HQ'd in Hrensko, on the Elbe river on the border between Czech and Germany. They are about 10 miles downstream from the famous "Dresden" cliffs.

At the time, Hudy Sports did not have a brand name. They sold product from other companies just like Dicks Sporting Goods or REI does but without their own brand. What they were doing was using their business knowledge and access to capital to buy controlling interest is some of their supplying factories so they could bring the product and deliveries up to modern standards

They were selling some Czech-made harnesses that were really nice, seemed to be well made and carried the CE certification so I negotiated a deal with them to make these harnesses as Trango harnesses for sale in the US. We made some sizing modifications, gear loop modifications and added a full strength haul loop to the back. If you remember the Trango Vertical, it sold really really well. It was a full featured, adjustable leg loop fully padded harness for under $50. At the time, the standard was the BD Bod Harness and we stomped it.

After running with their harnesses for a cuple of years they showed me some cams from a factory (Kouba I think) they were considering buying. They were nice, a bit rough around the edges but pull tests showed they were very strong, had CE and, importantly, we needed a single-stem cam to sell. We worked with them on some modifications: adding a double-looped sling, introducing proportional-length axles and color-coding that match popular cams in the US. Slight modifications, for sure, but necessary for the US market. We brought them in as Trango Flex-Cams in 1997.

At the time, there was no Rock Empire. Hudy did not own a product brand yet but as demand for well made product bloomed in Europe he began to think about it. I don't remember when RE came on line but what I do know is that their cams were not the Trango Flex Cams. Initially they were called Axle Cams and color coding matched their other cam line (Robot) and they didn't have proportionally spaced axles.

Well, the inevitable happened and soon, we were fighting a Canadian black marketeer who was bringing in our Flex Cams but with Rock Empire labels. We fought it for a year or so and then moved our production to Korea.

Whatever, they were great single axle cams and we never had any QC problems with them. We were proud to sell them.

Climb safe,
Mal


healyje


Nov 16, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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Yes, you are misinformed - this is definitely a divorce between tweedledee and tweedledum. Before this divorce their collective behavior against other manufacturers was exactly the same as what you are now seeing against each other. I find in-turn familial cannibalism fairly amusing and karmic.


Khoi


Nov 16, 2012, 12:17 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Khoi wrote:
healyje wrote:
That ship has come and gone so many times as to be a joke in the industry as is starting companies, racking up payables, and bailing to do it serially. If you've missed the endemic plagiarism all along then either you weren't around, weren't paying attention, or were blind.


I am asking about the charges against Mad Rock of plagiarism. It's not that I don't believe you; I simply am not aware, but would like to be informed.
Against Climb X, not Mad Rock. Mad Rock was the plaintiff/ victim.

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/...against-climb-x-gear

The Case of Mad Rock vs. Climb X:

Joe Garland was a Marketing and Sales Manager for Mad Rock during the years of 2002-2009. During his tenure, Garland attended trade shows and over saw the in-house sales staff. In his position at Mad Rock, Garland was allegedly privy to classified information including athlete contacts, business contracts, patent information, and overall company branding standards. He worked for the company from 2002-2009, then in 2010 he departed to pursue new ventures. Upon Garland’s departure, Mad Rock alledges that his desk was cleared out and allegedly a lap top computer was found to be missing. The hard drive of the computer allegedly contained sensitive customer information, as well as photographs of Mad Rock’s products and other proprietary information, including their graphic design and branding standards. The alleged computer was never recovered.

Garland reappeared on the climbing scene months later and launched a new climbing company called Climb X, which was registered in Canada as Climb-X Sports Inc. The new company that Garland formed had undeniably striking similarities to Garland’s past employer Mad Rock. The newly released Climb X ads depicted product photos which are identical to Mad Rock products.

I didn't ask for elaboration on plagiarism charges against Climb-X. I asked for elaboration on plagiarism charges against Mad Rock.

I am very aware of the shenanegans of Joe Garland, as that happened well after I had started climbing.

healyje wrote:
Yes, you are misinformed - this is definitely a divorce between tweedledee and tweedledum. Before this divorce their collective behavior against other manufacturers was exactly the same as what you are now seeing against each other. I find in-turn familial cannibalism fairly amusing and karmic.

If Mad Rock has commited the same underhanded practises that Joe Garland has, then I really want to be informed.

So far, I have not had much success with a google search, and your responses have been almost just as non-informative.

Was Mad Rock's inagural lineup all carbon copies of Five Ten???


gosharks


Nov 16, 2012, 12:30 PM
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healyje wrote:
Yes, you are misinformed - this is definitely a divorce between tweedledee and tweedledum. Before this divorce their collective behavior against other manufacturers was exactly the same as what you are now seeing against each other. I find in-turn familial cannibalism fairly amusing and karmic.
What did Mad Rock copy?


healyje


Nov 16, 2012, 1:23 PM
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gosharks wrote:
healyje wrote:
Yes, you are misinformed - this is definitely a divorce between tweedledee and tweedledum. Before this divorce their collective behavior against other manufacturers was exactly the same as what you are now seeing against each other. I find in-turn familial cannibalism fairly amusing and karmic.
What did Mad Rock copy?
If you invert that the answer could be a tweet.


gosharks


Nov 16, 2012, 2:29 PM
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healyje wrote:
gosharks wrote:
healyje wrote:
Yes, you are misinformed - this is definitely a divorce between tweedledee and tweedledum. Before this divorce their collective behavior against other manufacturers was exactly the same as what you are now seeing against each other. I find in-turn familial cannibalism fairly amusing and karmic.
What did Mad Rock copy?
If you invert that the answer could be a tweet.
I don't know what your problem is, but you keep spouting accusations with nothing to support them with. Give us something to work with and let us decide for ourselves.


healyje


Nov 16, 2012, 3:43 PM
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gosharks wrote:
I don't know what your problem is, but you keep spouting accusations with nothing to support them with. Give us something to work with and let us decide for ourselves.

Your problem is you're blind or just not paying attention.


gosharks


Nov 16, 2012, 4:33 PM
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Re: [healyje] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
gosharks wrote:
I don't know what your problem is, but you keep spouting accusations with nothing to support them with. Give us something to work with and let us decide for ourselves.

Your problem is you're blind or just not paying attention.
Look, I'm honestly trying to get some facts and understand what happened and you're dodging simple questions with terse remarks. I don't get why you're doing that.


healyje


Nov 16, 2012, 4:35 PM
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For fairly obvious reasons, but hey, take a look at catalogs for the past few years, it's all self-explanatory.


caughtinside


Nov 16, 2012, 5:17 PM
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What healy has alluded to like 10 times but seems unwilling to actually say is that the Mad Rock guys used to work for 5.10. Walked out the door one day and started Mad Rock, with a shoe line strikingly similar to the 5.10s of the day. Except made in china, about 2/3rds the price, and pretty low quality. I don't know who they ripped their carabiners off from, but they pretty much suck too.

I think Mad Rock started in like 2002 or so? So if you weren't climbing then... it isn't surprising that you didn't notice.


healyje


Nov 16, 2012, 5:31 PM
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Except it wasn't a one-time, start-up activity, but rather a lifestyle.


Halljt3


Nov 17, 2012, 3:43 PM
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Re: [Halljt3] Climb X nuts? [In reply to]
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Gave them a try today took a whipper on a #2... didn't budge. Probably wouldn't have spent my own money supporting Climb X, but for what its worth they get the job done.


acorneau


Nov 17, 2012, 4:41 PM
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Halljt3 wrote:
Gave them a try today took a whipper on a #2... didn't budge. Probably wouldn't have spent my own money supporting Climb X, but for what its worth they get the job done.


Bingo.

Congratulations on winning the free set of nuts, by the way.


Halljt3


Nov 17, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Thanks man


gunkiemike


Nov 18, 2012, 6:14 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
What healy has alluded to like 10 times but seems unwilling to actually say is that the Mad Rock guys used to work for 5.10. Walked out the door one day and started Mad Rock, with a shoe line strikingly similar to the 5.10s of the day.

I must have not been paying attention either when 5.10 shoes had a diffe
rent rubber around the perimeter for edging. It toothed heels for hooking. Both MR innovations if I'm not mistaken.

I don't have a dog in this fight; I've never bought anything from either MR or ClimbX.

M.


camhead


Nov 18, 2012, 8:24 AM
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Climbx seems pretty sketchy. I mean, they're excepting orders for a breaking device!



I've had previous breaking devices before, like dimpled Aliens or Link Cams, but I'd rather not have a breaking belay device.

But here's a question: would this breaking device that climbx is excepting orders for be appropriate for raping single ropes? Or is just for belaying?


camhead


Nov 18, 2012, 8:33 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
What healy has alluded to like 10 times but seems unwilling to actually say is that the Mad Rock guys used to work for 5.10. Walked out the door one day and started Mad Rock, with a shoe line strikingly similar to the 5.10s of the day. Except made in china, about 2/3rds the price, and pretty low quality. I don't know who they ripped their carabiners off from, but they pretty much suck too.

I think Mad Rock started in like 2002 or so? So if you weren't climbing then... it isn't surprising that you didn't notice.

Yeah, I recall that both Five Ten and Madrock came out with those scalloped heel cups at about the same time, to list one specific (I'm noticing that Healey is having a hard time with specific data points, and rather restates broad assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. Was he working for the GOP this past election cycle?).


moose_droppings


Nov 18, 2012, 10:27 AM
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camhead wrote:
(I'm noticing that Healey is having a hard time with specific data points, and rather restates broad assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. Was he working for the GOP this past election cycle?).

That'll hit Joe right below his political belt.
Laugh


healyje


Nov 18, 2012, 1:42 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
camhead wrote:
(I'm noticing that Healey is having a hard time with specific data points, and rather restates broad assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. Was he working for the GOP this past election cycle?).

That'll hit Joe right below his political belt.
Laugh

Nah, it's actual just a reflection of the litigious nature of the individuals getting the divorce.

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