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Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing?
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jt512


Nov 12, 2012, 8:18 AM
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Re: [moonbutt] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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Moonbutt, two questions:

1. The widespread use of anti-bacterial agents is thought to be a contributor to the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacterial. Furthermore, I would be concerned that frequent exposure to an antibiotic could increase an individual's risk of becoming infected with a resistant strain of bacteria. If use of anti-bacterial chalk became widespread in gyms, then I would be further concerned about the cumulative exposure to the anti-bacterial agent by users and employees of the gym. Contrary to healeyje, widespread adoption of anti-bacterial chalk in gyms would be expected to increase, not decrease, the probability of an MRSA outbreak from exposure at the gym. Finally, the question: Regarding your proposed product, should this be a concern, and if not, why not?

2. Would using your product be expected to be more effective than washing your hands after climbing, and if so, why?

Jay


TradEddie


Nov 12, 2012, 9:23 AM
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Re: [jt512] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Moonbutt, two questions:

1. The widespread use of anti-bacterial agents is thought to be a contributor to the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacterial. Furthermore, I would be concerned that frequent exposure to an antibiotic could increase an individual's risk of becoming infected with a resistant strain of bacteria. If use of anti-bacterial chalk became widespread in gyms, then I would be further concerned about the cumulative exposure to the anti-bacterial agent by users and employees of the gym. Contrary to healeyje, widespread adoption of anti-bacterial chalk in gyms would be expected to increase, not decrease, the probability of an MRSA outbreak from exposure at the gym. Finally, the question: Regarding your proposed product, should this be a concern, and if not, why not?

2. Would using your product be expected to be more effective than washing your hands after climbing, and if so, why?

Jay

Anti-bacterial soaps and antibiotics are completely unrelated. Indiscriminate use of antibiotics has increased resistance to antibiotics, and incorrect use of anti-microbial soaps could result in resistance to those chemicals too, but not to antibiotics.

There are many other good reasons to avoid anti-microbial soaps, but that is not one.

TE


milesenoell


Nov 12, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Moonbutt, two questions:

1. The widespread use of anti-bacterial agents is thought to be a contributor to the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacterial. Furthermore, I would be concerned that frequent exposure to an antibiotic could increase an individual's risk of becoming infected with a resistant strain of bacteria. If use of anti-bacterial chalk became widespread in gyms, then I would be further concerned about the cumulative exposure to the anti-bacterial agent by users and employees of the gym. Contrary to healeyje, widespread adoption of anti-bacterial chalk in gyms would be expected to increase, not decrease, the probability of an MRSA outbreak from exposure at the gym. Finally, the question: Regarding your proposed product, should this be a concern, and if not, why not?

2. Would using your product be expected to be more effective than washing your hands after climbing, and if so, why?

Jay

Anti-bacterial soaps and antibiotics are completely unrelated. Indiscriminate use of antibiotics has increased resistance to antibiotics, and incorrect use of anti-microbial soaps could result in resistance to those chemicals too, but not to antibiotics.

There are many other good reasons to avoid anti-microbial soaps, but that is not one.

TE

No and no.

First jt's no: Use of anti-microbial agents can contribute to resistant strains, but the sanitizing effect is still the primary impact. This is why every hospital everywhere uses anti-microbial soaps and sanitizers. The short term gain may not be worth the long term cost, but it is still a short term gain.

Second, trad eddie's no: resistance in microbes is generally conferred through exchange of r-factor plasmids which quite commonly impart resistance to much more than just the original threat. Exposure to antiseptics can encourage antibiotic resistance.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Nov 12, 2012, 9:48 AM)


TradEddie


Nov 12, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: [milesenoell] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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Show me any commonly used ingredient in antimicrobial soaps that has either a related mode of action or chemical similarity to a clinical antibiotic and I'll cede your point.

The general public uses antibiotic, antiseptic, sanitizer, antimicrobial and disinfectant interchangeably, these are not the same.

TE


onceahardman


Nov 12, 2012, 2:11 PM
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Re: [TradEddie] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Show me any commonly used ingredient in antimicrobial soaps that has either a related mode of action or chemical similarity to a clinical antibiotic and I'll cede your point.

The general public uses antibiotic, antiseptic, sanitizer, antimicrobial and disinfectant interchangeably, these are not the same.

TE

Your point about antibiotic vs antiseptic/sanitizer/antimicrobial/disinfectant is well made.

I'm trying to think of a substance which is a sanitizer, but not a disinfectant. What disinfectant is not also antimicrobial?

Antibiotics, of course, are in a seperate class.

The original point, relating to the use of antiseptic chalk, is not really related to your point. Do you want to breathe in airborne antiseptics? Do you think the OP's product idea is a good one?


TradEddie


Nov 12, 2012, 7:26 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
TradEddie wrote:
Show me any commonly used ingredient in antimicrobial soaps that has either a related mode of action or chemical similarity to a clinical antibiotic and I'll cede your point.

The general public uses antibiotic, antiseptic, sanitizer, antimicrobial and disinfectant interchangeably, these are not the same.

TE

Your point about antibiotic vs antiseptic/sanitizer/antimicrobial/disinfectant is well made.

I'm trying to think of a substance which is a sanitizer, but not a disinfectant. What disinfectant is not also antimicrobial?

Antibiotics, of course, are in a seperate class.

The original point, relating to the use of antiseptic chalk, is not really related to your point. Do you want to breathe in airborne antiseptics? Do you think the OP's product idea is a good one?

I work in the Pharma industry, so I breathe airborne disinfectants daily, I'm not concerned. Google the Hygiene Effect, using these unnecessarily is just training your body to be weak.

Definitions if these terms can vary from industry to industry, but generally speaking disinfectants are used on inanimate surfaces, and sanitants / antiseptics are used on skin. I'm willing to bet that antimicrobial soaps are called that because this term has no exact efficacy defined, therefore manufacturers don't have to meet any standard, if it kills microbes, it's antimicrobial.

TE


onceahardman


Nov 13, 2012, 3:47 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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Thanks for clarifying.

I work in PT, but my first degree was molecular biology. I haven't thought about this stuff in a while, especially the R-plasmid stuff Miles was talking about.

The OP was talking about antiseptic/antibacterials. Household bleach is both of these, and I would not want to breathe that, especially when attached to airborne particulate magnesium carbonate.


TradEddie


Nov 13, 2012, 5:23 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
Thanks for clarifying.

I work in PT, but my first degree was molecular biology. I haven't thought about this stuff in a while, especially the R-plasmid stuff Miles was talking about.

The OP was talking about antiseptic/antibacterials. Household bleach is both of these, and I would not want to breathe that, especially when attached to airborne particulate magnesium carbonate.

Alcohol is one of the most commonly used antiseptics, and I'm quite happy to breathe or ingest that...

On a more constructive note, fragranced chalk already exists and many essential oils have proven antimicrobial properties. I know several OCD germophobe climbers, so I think there actually could be a small market, especially if you can claim it's "organic" and "natural".

Not for me, thank you. Wash your hands with regular soap and warm water after climbing, you'll keep those cuts clean and still keep your skin's natural ecosystem.

TE


kikitastrophe


Nov 13, 2012, 6:52 AM
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Re: [moonbutt] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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1. I do care about infection/safety while rock climbing. For this reason I wash my hands after leaving the gym. Gyms are gross and associated with MRSA infection.

2. I would never ever ever by antimicrobial chalk and I would recommend that my friends did not as well. Fortunately I am in the medical field and thus they might even listen to me. (Just kidding, no one listens to me)

I agree with all of the previously stated points, well-researched and not above that suggest more antimicrobial agents are not the answer in preventing gym-acquired MRSA-infections. Bacteria are smart, and it hasn't worked for hospitals. What does work is any old kind of hand washing, done right. For one, we should all try to keep clean - wash your hands before you climb if you are going to the gym. If you have any open wounds, especially gross infected ones, please keep those covered at all times and wash your hands after touching them.

If you are outside, you are not going to catch infections from the rock like this - the wild fungal-bacterial-microbiome and cleansing UV rays of sunlight of the great outdoors will basically kick the snot out of this kind of bacteria. (Just don't get lyme, hanta virus, leptospirosis.... Giardia... You know, outdoorsy stuff.) If this comes to market I will be raving spitting crazy about using it outside. It is a horrible idea. Sure you use purell outside, but you do not smear it up and down the rock face, thanks. We don't know what it will do to the environment, the carefully balanced outside microbiome (billions of years in the making...)

Lastly, if anyone has kept up with the news, triclosan (an antimicrobial used commonly in antibacterial hand soap) has been shown to inhibit muscle contraction. Just the sort of thing you want on your hands when pulling the crux. (ref: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22891308 )

Thanks.


patto


Nov 13, 2012, 6:53 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Alcohol is one of the most commonly used antiseptics....

It is interesting that you mention that.

Antibacterial chalk already exists.

Beal liquid chalk is simply chalk in alcohol. Wink
http://www.climbinganchors.com.au/...ip-Liquid-Chalk.html


surfstar


Nov 13, 2012, 8:18 AM
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Re: [patto] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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umm,


you're gonna die!!! ?


theextremist04


Nov 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Re: [kikitastrophe] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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kikitastrophe wrote:
1. I do care about infection/safety while rock climbing. For this reason I wash my hands after leaving the gym. Gyms are gross and associated with MRSA infection.
Source please!


marc801


Nov 13, 2012, 2:20 PM
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Re: [theextremist04] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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theextremist04 wrote:
kikitastrophe wrote:
1. I do care about infection/safety while rock climbing. For this reason I wash my hands after leaving the gym. Gyms are gross and associated with MRSA infection.
Source please!
I don't know about studies that support kiki's statement above, but I came across this contrary study:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/218097.php


kikitastrophe


Nov 14, 2012, 5:28 AM
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Re: [theextremist04] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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Well, I can't source gross, since that is a personal opinion... (And despite that opinion I do go to my local climbing gym!)

But MRSA linked to athletics is very common. There is plenty of data out there, including weight-lifting gyms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16004165


moonbutt


Nov 19, 2012, 4:58 PM
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Re: [jt512] Can antibacterial/antiseptic chalk help reduce the risk of infections from indoor/outdoor climbing? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Moonbutt, two questions:

1. The widespread use of anti-bacterial agents is thought to be a contributor to the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacterial. Furthermore, I would be concerned that frequent exposure to an antibiotic could increase an individual's risk of becoming infected with a resistant strain of bacteria. If use of anti-bacterial chalk became widespread in gyms, then I would be further concerned about the cumulative exposure to the anti-bacterial agent by users and employees of the gym. Contrary to healeyje, widespread adoption of anti-bacterial chalk in gyms would be expected to increase, not decrease, the probability of an MRSA outbreak from exposure at the gym. Finally, the question: Regarding your proposed product, should this be a concern, and if not, why not?

2. Would using your product be expected to be more effective than washing your hands after climbing, and if so, why?

Jay


Hi Jt512

Thanks for your insight and really intelligent questions..

1. It is quite a debatable topic whether anti-bacterial drugs encourage the mutations in bacteria to make them resistant as it happened with mosquitoes probably.
But this is still an open issue whether all chemical contribute to mutations. The answer is no. My chemical has a proven record of being used in various health sectors without an trace of promoting mutations or maybe no study have been done to test that. I can say with confidence that the chances of bacteria developing resistant to this drug are very bleek.

b. You are talking same as washing your penis after having unsafe sex and saying I am safe. pun intended:)
It is always better to prevent the contact with the bacteria to increase effectiveness


(This post was edited by moonbutt on Nov 19, 2012, 5:03 PM)


milesenoell


Nov 19, 2012, 9:51 PM
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WTF?


iknowfear


Nov 20, 2012, 2:18 AM
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moonbutt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Moonbutt, two questions:

1. The widespread use of anti-bacterial agents is thought to be a contributor to the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacterial. Furthermore, I would be concerned that frequent exposure to an antibiotic could increase an individual's risk of becoming infected with a resistant strain of bacteria. If use of anti-bacterial chalk became widespread in gyms, then I would be further concerned about the cumulative exposure to the anti-bacterial agent by users and employees of the gym. Contrary to healeyje, widespread adoption of anti-bacterial chalk in gyms would be expected to increase, not decrease, the probability of an MRSA outbreak from exposure at the gym. Finally, the question: Regarding your proposed product, should this be a concern, and if not, why not?

2. Would using your product be expected to be more effective than washing your hands after climbing, and if so, why?

Jay


Hi Jt512

Thanks for your insight and really intelligent questions..

1. It is quite a debatable topic whether anti-bacterial drugs encourage the mutations in bacteria to make them resistant as it happened with mosquitoes probably.
But this is still an open issue whether all chemical contribute to mutations. The answer is no. My chemical has a proven record of being used in various health sectors without an trace of promoting mutations or maybe no study have been done to test that. I can say with confidence that the chances of bacteria developing resistant to this drug are very bleek.

b. You are talking same as washing your penis after having unsafe sex and saying I am safe. pun intended:)
It is always better to prevent the contact with the bacteria to increase effectiveness

If you don't know the difference between your penis and your hands, I don't want to climb with you...


TradEddie


Nov 20, 2012, 9:17 AM
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moonbutt wrote:
1. It is quite a debatable topic whether anti-bacterial drugs encourage the mutations in bacteria to make them resistant as it happened with mosquitoes probably.

Bacteria (or humans for that matter) don't need any help mutating, it happens every reproductive cycle. USE of antibiotics, and especially MISUSE of them will select for the mutations that happen spontaneously. In bacteria, this successful mutation can then be shared via plasmids to other species. When antibiotics are used properly, the risk is minimized because the bacteria are killed before the mutation occurs, however failing to complete a course of antibiotics, or agricultural use of sub-clinical doses will select for the mutants. The same could happen with antiseptics or disinfectants, if insufficient contact time or concentration was used, but most of these have such broad modes of action that it is much less likely.

TE


moonbutt


Nov 22, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Hello everyone,

Thanks a lot for valuable feedback and criticism. I believe people are afraid of chemicals. Therefore I was working on this past few weeks to find something herbal to replace the chemical.
Luckily with the help of someone from India, I am able to develop an dry extract of natural occuring antibacterial herbs.

Now this Chalk (mix of Magnesium carbonate and antibacterial herbs) is very safe, you can even eat it safely.
Disclaimer: In lab tests. this is slightly less effective than previous chemical based chalk because of its dry nature. But it is 100%safe.

Now my question is , how many of you will be interested in buying this chalk?

Thanks,


edge


Nov 22, 2012, 10:30 AM
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moonbutt wrote:

Now my question is , how many of you will be interested in buying this chalk?

And our resounding answer is still: no one.


marc801


Nov 22, 2012, 10:52 AM
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moonbutt wrote:
Hello everyone,

Thanks a lot for valuable feedback and criticism. I believe people are afraid of chemicals. Therefore I was working on this past few weeks to find something herbal to replace the chemical.
Luckily with the help of someone from India, I am able to develop an dry extract of natural occuring antibacterial herbs.

Now this Chalk (mix of Magnesium carbonate and antibacterial herbs) is very safe, you can even eat it safely.
Disclaimer: In lab tests. this is slightly less effective than previous chemical based chalk because of its dry nature. But it is 100%safe.

Now my question is , how many of you will be interested in buying this chalk?

Thanks,
No one with even half a brain. It's not the chemicals that are bad, it's your idea that people will want this stuff that's without merit.


shockabuku


Nov 22, 2012, 11:46 AM
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kikitastrophe wrote:
Sure you use purell outside...

I hate that stuff too; I don't use it - especially not outside. Maybe in Walmart.


Angelostass


Nov 23, 2012, 2:27 AM
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Yes antibacterial/ antiseptic chalk would reduce the risk of infection on outside climbing. But too some extent only. we must never depend on one thing only because infection cannot be stopped by using chalk. It requires some strong antiseptic solution.


onceahardman


Nov 23, 2012, 4:03 AM
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In reply to:
I believe people are afraid of chemicals. Therefore I was working on this past few weeks to find something herbal to replace the chemical.

Are herbal remedies not composed of chemicals? Please don't forget, the penecillins were all originally isolated from plants. Perhaps they still are.

You are free to try to bring to market anything you want. I will never buy antiseptic chalk.

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