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Training for shoulder Longevity
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Treemendous


Nov 24, 2012, 5:25 PM
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Training for shoulder Longevity
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Hello all,

I know there a lot of threads about shoulder injuries, but I'm looking for an active maintenance routine, if you will. Something I can do to strengthen the stabilizing muscles in the shoulder that I can do every week mixed in with my climbing sessions.

Thanks!


shimanilami


Nov 24, 2012, 5:52 PM
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Re: [Treemendous] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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For healthy shoulders, quit climbing.


onceahardman


Nov 25, 2012, 6:05 AM
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Re: [Treemendous] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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Treemendous wrote:
Hello all,

I know there a lot of threads about shoulder injuries, but I'm looking for an active maintenance routine, if you will. Something I can do to strengthen the stabilizing muscles in the shoulder that I can do every week mixed in with my climbing sessions.

Thanks!

There is lots of information out there. Here is a quick example, more targeted toward prevention, rather than rehabilitation. If you already have shoulder problems, start out with easier stuff. This one seems to even be a bit more climbing specific than some.

http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RotatorCuff.asp


patto


Nov 25, 2012, 8:32 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
For healthy shoulders, quit climbing.

I don't see anything inherently damaging about climbing towards shoulders. Nor for that matter do I see a need for specific training to ensure shoulder longevity.


onceahardman


Nov 25, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Re: [patto] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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patto wrote:

Nor for that matter do I see a need for specific training to ensure shoulder longevity.

I take it you have not really looked into the issue, but have nonetheless formed an opinion.


patto


Nov 25, 2012, 10:13 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
I take it you have not really looked into the issue, but have nonetheless formed an opinion.

The issue? What is "the issue" that I should look into?

Sure, SOME people have "A" issue with shoulder injuries and thus need rehab & strengthening? But is there a suggesting that such injuries are inherent in climbing? From my experience this is far from the case.


(This post was edited by patto on Nov 25, 2012, 10:14 AM)


lena_chita
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Nov 25, 2012, 11:19 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
Treemendous wrote:
Hello all,

I know there a lot of threads about shoulder injuries, but I'm looking for an active maintenance routine, if you will. Something I can do to strengthen the stabilizing muscles in the shoulder that I can do every week mixed in with my climbing sessions.

Thanks!

There is lots of information out there. Here is a quick example, more targeted toward prevention, rather than rehabilitation. If you already have shoulder problems, start out with easier stuff. This one seems to even be a bit more climbing specific than some.

http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RotatorCuff.asp


A quick question about a program you linked in the post above:

I found that on my injured side (the injury was not shoulder, rather forearm supinator/elbow, but I have not regained full strength there yet) Some of the exercises are markedly harder than other.

For example, I have no problem with propped external rotator exercise, and my strength appears to be very similar on both sides, but with the same weight (only 5 lb, nothing major) external rotator on knee, and side-lying external rotator exercises are much harder. I cannot actually complete a set of 12 on that side, especially with side-lying exercise, while having no problem with non-injured side. I can do it with 2.5 lb weight without problems.

So, in a case like this, do you think it is better to use the same weight on both sides, and do only however many reps I can (right now it is a measly 6 at a time), eventually hopefully getting up to 12, or is it better to reduce the weight until I can do a set of 12 on the injured side, and then gradually increase the weight?

And is there any drawback to using heavier weight on non-injured side, and/or doing more reps on non-injured side? I wouldn't want to have any more imbalance than I already have.


onceahardman


Nov 25, 2012, 11:52 AM
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Re: [patto] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I take it you have not really looked into the issue, but have nonetheless formed an opinion.

The issue? What is "the issue" that I should look into?

Sure, SOME people have "A" issue with shoulder injuries and thus need rehab & strengthening? But is there a suggesting that such injuries are inherent in climbing? From my experience this is far from the case.

I guess I'm unclear regarding your point.

Are you saying that rock climbers don't get shoulder injuries like other overhead athletes,

or,

are you saying that there is no evidence that rotator cuff strengthening can reduce the incidence of shoulder injury in overhead athletes?

Or is your point something else entirely? Sorry for my confusion.


onceahardman


Nov 25, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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Lena,

The link illustrates resisted external rotation performed in three different planes. (horizontal, frontal, and sagittal) All are important for overhead athletes.

These motions are performed by different parts of the cuff. If you have weakness in one or more motions, this is suggestive of injury, especially a partial tear, although pain inhibition due to tendinitis or bursitis is also possible.

While there is value in doing some high-load/low rep things, if you were my patient, I'd have you back off to a weight at which you can perform 8-12 reps. When you can do 3 sets of 10, increase the load until you are again at 8-12 reps.

The most powerful supinator is biceps, which also crosses the shoulder. Long term shoulder injuries can result in arthritic changes at the shoulder which can damage the proximal biceps tendon, and thus weaken your supination strength. (raises hand).


lena_chita
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Nov 25, 2012, 6:01 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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Thanks!


UAphenix


Nov 26, 2012, 7:51 AM
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I come from a competitive powerlifting background and have had shoulder issues (car accident related) the entire time so keeping my shoulders healthy is always in the back of my mind. The best warmup or quick set of exercises (you can do them before or after, but just a warning, if you do it before your shoulders will be fatigued and it will take awhile to become acclimated) is by a powerlifting group called Diesel Crew, if you google Diesel Crew shoulder warmup, it'll pull it up. here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCp-YynBEvE. Lena, with unilateral movements, use the same weight for both sides and start with the weak side, use a weight you can get within the required rep range, then hit the same number of reps on the strong side.


onceahardman


Nov 26, 2012, 2:28 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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Sorry, Lena, I made a bit of a mess of the recommended set/rep scheme above. I was in a hurry.

What I really meant was, start with a weight that you can lift, with perfect technique, about 8-10 times. Do a set at that weight, rest about 45 sec., and do another set. Rest another 45 sec., and do another set. (a set ends when your perfect technique fails).

When you get strong enough that you can do 3 sets of 12 at that weight, it is time to increase the weight.

You had another point about muscle imbalances. From a rehabilitation standpoint (as opposed to a prevention, bodybuilding, or powerlifting standpoint), muscle imbalance refers to imbalance within the joint, rather than comparing to the opposite limb.


lena_chita
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Nov 27, 2012, 7:49 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
Sorry, Lena, I made a bit of a mess of the recommended set/rep scheme above. I was in a hurry.

What I really meant was, start with a weight that you can lift, with perfect technique, about 8-10 times. Do a set at that weight, rest about 45 sec., and do another set. Rest another 45 sec., and do another set. (a set ends when your perfect technique fails).

When you get strong enough that you can do 3 sets of 12 at that weight, it is time to increase the weight.

You had another point about muscle imbalances. From a rehabilitation standpoint (as opposed to a prevention, bodybuilding, or powerlifting standpoint), muscle imbalance refers to imbalance within the joint, rather than comparing to the opposite limb.


Maybe I should be clearer. What I was asking is this:

In the link you initially posted, there are 3 exercises: (1)propped on knee, (2)propped on a bar, and (3)side-lying.

On the injured side, I can do 12 reps with 5lb weight doing exercises 1 and 2, but can ONLY do 12 reps of exercise 3 with 2.5 lb weight. On the non-injured side I can do all three with 5 lb.

So, should I continue doing exercises 1 and 2 on the injured side with 5 lb weight, while doing exercise 3 with 2.5 lb weight, and gradually increasing that weight to 5 lb for exercise 3, or should I drop down to 2.5 lb weight for all three exercises on injured side, until I can slowly build up exercise 3 strength?

And while I am using smaller weight on the injured side, should I also keep the low weight for the healthy side, to keep things even?

btw, the side-lying exercise three has already been recommended to me by the PT, as part of the elbow/forearm rehab, beucase she noticed the weakness.
I've never had any pain or problems with my shoulders, nor any shoulder injury that I know of, so it is baffling to me (and interesting, on a detached scientific level, LOL) that issues I had with forearm/elbow apparently had an effect on the shoulder. Unless it is the other way around, and I always had this weakness in the shoulder, and it somehow contributed to the elbow issues. Chicken and egg? Or maybe the third possibility, and they are completely unrelated?


onceahardman


Nov 27, 2012, 1:58 PM
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I'd recommend the set/rep scheme I just gave you for the sidelying exercise. Use the same weight on that entire cuff.

Do whatever you want on the strong side.


crackmeup


Jan 13, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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I was looking for a shoulder injury prevention routine that I could do anywhere while on the road. This one seems very convenient because it only requires a Theraband, but I'm not qualified to evaluate it. It seems a bit like overkill to me (lots of sets, lots of reps), and I assume one should do the whole routine twice a week. I would appreciate an informed opinion:

http://www.theshortspan.com/.../injury/shoulder.htm


onceahardman


Jan 14, 2013, 3:52 AM
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Yeah, that's a decent start.

Some people probably don't need to do the doorway stretches though. Especially people who have instability problems.


Partner cracklover


Jan 14, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
Treemendous wrote:
Hello all,

I know there a lot of threads about shoulder injuries, but I'm looking for an active maintenance routine, if you will. Something I can do to strengthen the stabilizing muscles in the shoulder that I can do every week mixed in with my climbing sessions.

Thanks!

There is lots of information out there. Here is a quick example, more targeted toward prevention, rather than rehabilitation. If you already have shoulder problems, start out with easier stuff. This one seems to even be a bit more climbing specific than some.

http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RotatorCuff.asp

Nice link! It includes some stuff I'd not seen before!

One question - an exercise I've seen before is *not* included in your link, and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on why. Maybe it's not really so useful, or maybe there's some other reason it's not mentioned?

I'll describe the exercise using the link you gave. Using exercise number 3 as an example - the model is pictured lying on her left side, with the weight in her right hand. In the exercise described in the link, she raises her right hand through an arc of roughly 90 degrees, starting from her stomach.

In the exercise I'm thinking of, move the weight to her *left* hand. Again, she is lying on her left side, her elbow is in tight, her arm bent 90 degrees. But now the weight starts low, and moves in an arc of roughly 90 degrees, ending at her stomach. It winds up being exactly the same motion, but in reverse.

GO


onceahardman


Jan 14, 2013, 2:43 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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You are describing resisted internal rotation with a dumbell.

The 3 exercises in the link I provided are all resisted external rotation.

Internal rotation has value also, and really should be done. Personally, as someone who has had serious shoulder injures, I find it kind of uncomfortable to rotate a shoulder while I am lying on it. I like a cable machine or resistance bands for internal rotation.

Easiliy the most commonly injured RC muscle is supraspinatus. External rotation from an internally rotated position will address this, usually pretty effectively.

Thanks for your interest.


Partner cracklover


Jan 15, 2013, 8:08 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
You are describing resisted internal rotation with a dumbell.

The 3 exercises in the link I provided are all resisted external rotation.

Internal rotation has value also, and really should be done. Personally, as someone who has had serious shoulder injures, I find it kind of uncomfortable to rotate a shoulder while I am lying on it. I like a cable machine or resistance bands for internal rotation.

Easiliy the most commonly injured RC muscle is supraspinatus. External rotation from an internally rotated position will address this, usually pretty effectively.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, internal rotation exercises, like the one I describe, are useful in principle (and may even provide important balance) but the external exercises are the ones best suited to injury prevention in rock climbers.

In reply to:
Thanks for your interest.

Thanks for your time and expertise!

GO


Jnclk


Jan 15, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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Internal rotation targets the subscapularis which is the largest of the four RC muscles.

Most people over time have a tendency to round their shoulders inward. Slouching, poor posture, and extended time at the computer are contributors to this. As climbers we are especially prone to rounded shoulders due to the mechanics of our activity. When the shoulders round, they turn inward and rise a bit in the socket. This can lead to impingements which put pressure on the cuff attachment and lead to pain, dysfunction, etc.

I think internal rotation can contribute to pulling the shoulders in. We want the our shoulders down and back. Scapular stabilization exercises as well as external rotation are very effective in achieving this.


(This post was edited by Jnclk on Jan 15, 2013, 10:09 AM)


onceahardman


Jan 15, 2013, 2:50 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Training for shoulder Longevity [In reply to]
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I'd state it a bit more precisely. Internal rotation (subscapularis), is valuable, but it is less frequently injured. The external rotators, especially supraspinatus, is more frequently injured, and a more frequent target for rehabilitation and preventative maintenance.

But that is not to say that subscapularis is never injured, because sometimes it is. internal rotation is often the first isokinetic exercise tolerated after glenohumeral dislocation.


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