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lena_chita
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Dec 3, 2012, 8:30 AM
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Incorporating hangboard into training
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This came up in discussion at the gym the other day, and I realized that I do not know the answer to it, so here goes... The question is bolded, below, but first, background.

First of all, I am familiar with Mike Anderson's Rockprodigy training plan(http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ockprodigy__258.html) and various other periodisation schemes, such as the one followed by Ryan Palo. (http://ryanpalo.blogspot.com/p/training.html

The key feature of periodization plans is, well, PERIODIZATION. You commit to doing a cycle of several weeks of Endurance, several weeks of Hypertrophy (hangboard), several weeks of max recruitment (campus board), and several weeks of power endurance, followed by the peak/performance period. The length of each period is somewhat dependent on the goals and type of climbing you do.

If you follow the plan, such as outlined by rockprodigy, you commit to weeks of doing hangboard INSTEAD of climbing, because to do the hangboard workout in it's entirety takes 1.5-2 hrs, and if you do it at a proper intensity 2-3 times a week, you will be unable to climb anywhere near your max, anyway, so all the climbing you do during the weeks of hypertrophy or max recruitment is limited to traversing for warmups/cool downs, and other easy climbing as opportunity presents.



BUT, there are also various hangboard workout out there, everything from metolius's sample 10-20-30 min workouts to Moonboard workouts, that seem to exist on their own, not within any multi-week training plans.

These workouts also seem to be shorter/less intense, and thus theoretically possible to incorporate into climbing schedule without giving up "just climbing" for weeks and months.

So, the question that came up during discussion is this:

Rockprodigy plan works -- because I personally have seen evidence that people who follow this plan see improvement in the grade they are climbing during the peak period. Is there evidence that incorporating a hangboard workout into a regular climbing schedule, instead of following a periodization plan, ALSO works?

To me, it seems like it would work less well, if at all, but I had no evidence other than gut feeling to counteract the argument along the lines of "well, doing something is always better than NOT doing it, so it is better to do hangboard once a week than not do it at all".
I am skeptical because I have seen multiple examples of people who do 10-20 min of something on the hangboard after climbing in the gym, and I am yet to see any evidence that they derive any benefit from it.

Just to be clear, we are talking something like doing the regular gym climbing on Tue/Thur/Sat, and then ALSO doing a hangboard workout on Fri, or, doing regular climbing on Tue/Thur/Sat and finishing up the climbing session by 30 min of hangboarding.

I am interested in personal experience of people who have done something like this.

But I am NOT interested in hearing 'I do 40 pullups and 40 leg lifts on hangboard after every climbing session and it TOTALLY works'.

I am only interested in hearing your hangboard workout plan if you can back it up by a statement such as this: I was climbing at 5.12/V5 (or whatever) grade for several years, and when I started doing this workout I had gone to climbing 5.13/V8 (insert applicable grades).


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Do you have links to any such campus training regimes? Ones that are designed to supplement rather than replace climbing?

I would happily be a guinea pig for such a routine, because I'm very interested in gaining pure power - it feels like a weak point in my climbing - but am not interested in giving up all of my climbing time.

GO


amarius


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For agglomeration, and not thread theft purposes - article on finger training by Eva López, published in a peer reviewed journal


lena_chita
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Dec 3, 2012, 10:37 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Do you have links to any such campus training regimes? Ones that are designed to supplement rather than replace climbing?

I would happily be a guinea pig for such a routine, because I'm very interested in gaining pure power - it feels like a weak point in my climbing - but am not interested in giving up all of my climbing time.

GO

If you mean hangboard (not campus, as you wrote), then yes. But to be a stickler for terms, hangboard does not give you power.

For example, metolius 10-20-30min hangboard workouts:

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...ng_giude_10_min.html


Moom board workout:

http://www.moonclimbing.com/...board-training-plan/


And here is the one from Nicros:

http://www.nicros.com/...ard-training-part-1/


The larger (and VERY unclear to me) question is, how such workouts should be incorporated into climbing training.

Rockprodigy's plan tells you not only WHAT to do on a hangboard, but how frequently, in what time frame, and how to track progress.

The other "training" articles, tell you want to do on the hangboard, but not really how often, and over what time frame, or how to fit it into your climbing schedule, and what sort of gains to expect or how to track them.


What I typically see in the gym is people doing pullups and various hangs/leg lifts on a hangboard, about 15-20 minutes of it, total, at the end of their "just-climbing" day, when they feel like doing it. maybe once this week, and maybe twice next week, and then maybe not again until three weeks later.

It seems to give them satisfaction, and it is fun (I have joined in, on occasion, too), but people who do it are climbing at the same level now as they climbed two-three years ago, and often at a level below the not-particularly-remarkable level that I am climbing at, so I do not believe that this sort of 'training" is actually doing anything, other than making people feel good about themselves.


climb4free


Dec 3, 2012, 11:20 AM
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I too have done a close variation of RockProdigy's plan. My explanation of "close variation" is this. I did pretty close to verbatim for my winter training block. Then, due to many factors, family, MN weather, etc., I do not fully subscribe to the path of doing cycle after cycle throughout the year as I would rather be in performance mode at a moments notice during the rare cooperative weather and family schedules. I know that this is lowering my pure peak-performance but I do feel the gradual and consistent gains. So throughout the remainder of the year, I meld a watered down periodization with as much route milage as I can.

In that first year I went from onsight 5.10c to 5.11c and redpoint 5.11b to 5.12a.

I have asked myself similar questions about the role of hangboarding in my future training. And from my kinesiology background I have come up with this revelation: One threshold I have never even teased is the pure volume of training amount. So, I am looking at adding a couple quick (20-30 min) hangboard workouts in the mornings. Particularly on days where my evening workout is more stamina or endurance focused.

Strength athletes do this type of training split all the time, granted they are working different body parts AM vs PM. But in my case, I will be working different energy systems.

We'll see...


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Dec 3, 2012, 11:35 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Do you have links to any such campus training regimes? Ones that are designed to supplement rather than replace climbing?

I would happily be a guinea pig for such a routine, because I'm very interested in gaining pure power - it feels like a weak point in my climbing - but am not interested in giving up all of my climbing time.

GO

If you mean hangboard (not campus, as you wrote), then yes. But to be a stickler for terms, hangboard does not give you power.

For example, metolius 10-20-30min hangboard workouts:

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...ng_giude_10_min.html


Moom board workout:

http://www.moonclimbing.com/...board-training-plan/


And here is the one from Nicros:

http://www.nicros.com/...ard-training-part-1/


The larger (and VERY unclear to me) question is, how such workouts should be incorporated into climbing training.

Rockprodigy's plan tells you not only WHAT to do on a hangboard, but how frequently, in what time frame, and how to track progress.

The other "training" articles, tell you want to do on the hangboard, but not really how often, and over what time frame, or how to fit it into your climbing schedule, and what sort of gains to expect or how to track them.


What I typically see in the gym is people doing pullups and various hangs/leg lifts on a hangboard, about 15-20 minutes of it, total, at the end of their "just-climbing" day, when they feel like doing it. maybe once this week, and maybe twice next week, and then maybe not again until three weeks later.

It seems to give them satisfaction, and it is fun (I have joined in, on occasion, too), but people who do it are climbing at the same level now as they climbed two-three years ago, and often at a level below the not-particularly-remarkable level that I am climbing at, so I do not believe that this sort of 'training" is actually doing anything, other than making people feel good about themselves.

Oh, okay. What are hangboards supposed to give you?

And yeah, I'm looking at gaining power, and wanting to find a decent campus-board workout.

Sorry - I've nothing to offer this thread.

Cheers,

GO


lena_chita
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Dec 3, 2012, 11:36 AM
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climb4free wrote:
I too have done a close variation of RockProdigy's plan. My explanation of "close variation" is this. I did pretty close to verbatim for my winter training block. Then, due to many factors, family, MN weather, etc., I do not fully subscribe to the path of doing cycle after cycle throughout the year as I would rather be in performance mode at a moments notice during the rare cooperative weather and family schedules. I know that this is lowering my pure peak-performance but I do feel the gradual and consistent gains. So throughout the remainder of the year, I meld a watered down periodization with as much route milage as I can.

In that first year I went from onsight 5.10c to 5.11c and redpoint 5.11b to 5.12a.

I have asked myself similar questions about the role of hangboarding in my future training. And from my kinesiology background I have come up with this revelation: One threshold I have never even teased is the pure volume of training amount. So, I am looking at adding a couple quick (20-30 min) hangboard workouts in the mornings. Particularly on days where my evening workout is more stamina or endurance focused.

Strength athletes do this type of training split all the time, granted they are working different body parts AM vs PM. But in my case, I will be working different energy systems.

We'll see...


How many cycles per year do you anticipate, if you were doing the cycle exactly? Sounds like you are doing short cycles?

I can only see doing two cycles in a year -- training in winter for spring climbing season, and training in summer for fall climbing season.

I agree with you, doing a full-on long cycle of periodisation does not fit well with the kind of climbing schedule that I can manage. I am not likely to go on a two-week-long trip during my "peak" phase, and cannot not even commit to climbing every single weekend for a month, so it doesn't necessarily make sense to sacrifice 3 months worth of climbing for 3 weekends of "peak performance".

This is the reason why I had refrained from following periodisation training plan before. But I have decided to do a winter training cycle following Mike Anderson's plan. I should be able to do a cycle without major disruption, and I guess I'll see in spring if it was worth it.

I am not sure what you mean by ' watered down perisodisation" melded with volume training. Do you mind providing details?

My original question is not so much about WHAT I SHOULD DO-- I know what I am planning on doing. It is more about whether there is evidence of something else working, namely, throwing a few hangboard sessions here and there in regular climbing.


lena_chita
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Dec 3, 2012, 11:50 AM
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cracklover wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Do you have links to any such campus training regimes? Ones that are designed to supplement rather than replace climbing?

I would happily be a guinea pig for such a routine, because I'm very interested in gaining pure power - it feels like a weak point in my climbing - but am not interested in giving up all of my climbing time.

GO

If you mean hangboard (not campus, as you wrote), then yes. But to be a stickler for terms, hangboard does not give you power.

For example, metolius 10-20-30min hangboard workouts:

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...ng_giude_10_min.html


Moom board workout:

http://www.moonclimbing.com/...board-training-plan/


And here is the one from Nicros:

http://www.nicros.com/...ard-training-part-1/


The larger (and VERY unclear to me) question is, how such workouts should be incorporated into climbing training.

Rockprodigy's plan tells you not only WHAT to do on a hangboard, but how frequently, in what time frame, and how to track progress.

The other "training" articles, tell you want to do on the hangboard, but not really how often, and over what time frame, or how to fit it into your climbing schedule, and what sort of gains to expect or how to track them.


What I typically see in the gym is people doing pullups and various hangs/leg lifts on a hangboard, about 15-20 minutes of it, total, at the end of their "just-climbing" day, when they feel like doing it. maybe once this week, and maybe twice next week, and then maybe not again until three weeks later.

It seems to give them satisfaction, and it is fun (I have joined in, on occasion, too), but people who do it are climbing at the same level now as they climbed two-three years ago, and often at a level below the not-particularly-remarkable level that I am climbing at, so I do not believe that this sort of 'training" is actually doing anything, other than making people feel good about themselves.

Oh, okay. What are hangboards supposed to give you?

And yeah, I'm looking at gaining power, and wanting to find a decent campus-board workout.

Sorry - I've nothing to offer this thread.

Cheers,

GO


Hangboard is supposed to increase contact strength and forearm hypertrophy.

As far as campus board training, I plan to do simple ladders myself during the campus training phase (max recruitment) because that is all I can do at the moment.

Ben Moon has campus board workouts that might be useful for you:

http://www.moonclimbing.com/...ool/campus-boarding/


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Thanks!

GO


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Hey Lena,

The most efficient, quickest way to improve is through periodization. And, it is unusually good for climbers who live in areas that have long periods of shitty climbing outside (like Cleveland). Given those premises, it is not surprising that you have not seen many climbers in your gym benefiting from incorporating hangboard routines into otherwise intense climbing sessions– if a climber has the discipline and foresight to properly hangboard train at all in your area, they will do so in a periodized routine.

That said, I have heard of other climbers either 1) doing a lighter workout as part of a greater bouldering/training session, or 2) doing a heavy-duty workout once a week, and climbing the rest of the week. The drawback is that you will not see the rapid gains in strength that you would from a routine devoted solely to hangboarding.

Also, keep in mind that you can (and should) still do tons of lower-intensity ARCing, traversing, and warming up, both before and after hangboarding. So you'll still be climbing a bit, just not bouldering at your max.


Lokie


Dec 3, 2012, 3:14 PM
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I began a regimented hangboard routine at the end of the summer. My training involved a series of 7 grips, doing 5x5second weighted hangs with 2 minutes of rest between, and adding weight weekly. I did this twice per week for 12 weeks. By the end of the schedule, I had increased the added weight from 10 --> 40 lbs, increased my hardest onsight (12a --> 12c) and matched my hardest redpoint of 13b, which took me a year of projecting to get the first time, in 5 tries.

I added my routine to my my normal climbing. I was only climbing Saturday and Sunday, with just generally fitness stuff during the week, to doing the hangboarding Tues/Thurs, with general fitness stuff getting shuffled to only M/W/F. Take it for what you will, but the training absolutely worked for me.


granite_grrl


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Lena, I tried hang boarding for the first time last year on a casual level and found I gained improvement. Winter is still an "ON" season for me so prioritization doesn't really work when I'm still trying to push my self physically on the weekend ice/mixed climbing.

I came out of winter with better grip strength than I had going in (which is pretty cool on account I spend most of my winter hanging onto icetool jugs). But I don't know if you'd be satisfied with the results (while I did experience gains the gains weren't huge).

FWIW I only did one hang board session a week, probably around the level of the Metolious session or a little harder and went ice/mixed climbing on the weekends.


melp2718


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I follow a somewhat strict training plan that involves fingerboarding, climbing, as well as general fitness stuff. The plan has two versions "in season" which for me is usually every weekend climbing at Rumney and "off season".

I realize I am going to get flamed for over training, but I have followed a very similar schedule for years. My finger-board numbers keep going up. This type of training took me from climbing 5.13b/v8 to a maximum of 5.14b/v11. I haven't seen a huge amount of progress in the last few years, however. I am a normal working guy(with an extremely supporting family). I had a sporting back-ground, but I didn't start climbing until my mid 20's.




In season:

Monday am: weightlifting. mostly power-oriented olympic style lifts(power snatches and power cleans). Some deadlifts, weighted pullups, back extensions, and front lever work. I am not convinced this is helpful, but after years of doing nothing that wasn't directly applicable to climbing I got a little bored.

Monday pm: 8-7-6 fingerboard workout. This is a little hard to describe but here it goes. Start with one grip. Perform 8 reps of hanging 7s and resting 3. Now rest for 90 seconds. Perform 7 reps. Rest 90 seconds. Perform 6 reps. Rest 3 minutes and switch grips. I do 5 total grips. If I am successful with all of the hangs for a certain grip, I add 2 pounds the next session.

Tuesday am: This fall I rested. Although I am thinking of doing some power endurance intervals on my home-wall this spring.

Tuesday pm: Climb at the local climbing gym(Maine rock gym). I don't really see this as super serious climbing. Mostly I try and flash as many problems as I can, and socialize. If the problems are getting stale I sometimes climb in a weight belt.

Wednesday am: fingerboard workout: Similar to Monday except with 5-4-3 reps. Since there are fewer reps there is obviously more weight.

Wednesday pm: Bouldering on my home wall. This wall is 50 degrees overhanging and 8ft x 12ft. I work both 1-3 and 3-5 move boulder problems during this session.

Thursday am: nothing

Thursday pm: Fingerboard. Similar to the others, except 2-1-1 reps. The weight here is a lot heavier than any other session. 1/3 of the time I skip this session. Even though I use the most weight in this session I find that it taxes me least of all.

Friday: Complete rest.

Sat-Sun: Climbing at Rumney. I have climbed there for years so all I have left to climb are long-ish and very long term projects.

The off-season schedule is similar, but I'll add a few sessions. An extra weightlifting day, an extra home-wall session of my choice, another day at the gym, and some cardio if I am feel like the only thing that kept me from sending my project last season was 8 pounds.

You can check out some of my workout logs here if you are interested:
http://robotclimbing.blogspot.com/p/training-charts-and-log.html
Don't mind the mediocre training blog that it is attached too however.

After climbing my max a few years ago I haven't really had the heart to stay really light. This is important for me to climb 5.14. I find that I can boulder pretty hard without watching what I eat, so thats why it seems like my boulder sends have been better in the last few years. You can look me up on 8a and see the progress if you like: my name is Michael Penn.


(This post was edited by melp2718 on Dec 3, 2012, 6:13 PM)


Syd


Dec 3, 2012, 7:01 PM
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Lena, I've been using a Metolius Simulator for the past couple of years. I do various bits whenever I pass by it plus their standard 10 min. session a couple of times a week. I only get to climb one day a week.
I'm 64 and have been climbing 15 years. Before using the hangboard, my grades had levelled out at around 21-22 (5.11a) for several years, now I've moved up about 2+ grades and still improving. When I started on the hangboard, I could only hang from the smallest edges for a couple of seconds, now my best is 40 seconds. It took me a long time to stick the 45's but now my best is 20 seconds. I'm very much a fan of the Metolius. I workout for 2 hours a day but never entirely on the hangboard.


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Thanks everyone! melp, that was very helpful, though not quite the level of training that my body can sustain at this point.

I see that there is a lot of variations, but the general theme is the same. I'm finalizing my plan for the next~3 months. Hopefully I'll have something worth reporting back after the cycle is over.


danabart


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Hello,

Go on the training forum on Mountian Project and email Will S; shouldn't be hard to find, he posts in thta forum frquently. He seems to have the best perspective on how to fit hangboarding into a training regimen.


elmayimbe


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It seems a lot of euros definitely advocate integrating short hangboard sessions with other climbing, pretty much throughout the year. Important keys for hangboard sessions are to be well-rested and keep volume low, so they focus on improving maximum strength/power and you still have reserves/skin to climb routes/boulder.

If you haven't already, you should check out Eva Lopez's blog: http://eva-lopez.blogspot.com/

Here is a part of a comment from her when someone posed a question similar to your topic:

No matter what phase of the season I'm on, I NEVER abandon finger strength training and boulder. As long as we place carefully the maximum strength sessions, at the beginning of the workout and preferably separated from intensive strength-endurance days or days of high volume; and as long as we observe the 48-hour rest between strength sessions, we will achieve a better finger strength. Consequently the first part of my planning is based on a lot of boulder, both short and long, with complete rest, and also endurance; in the second phase there's short and long boulder with incomplete rest and power endurance, but always keeping the maximum strength and hard boulder work; in the final part the contents are similar to those of the competition or project, alternating with short sessions of high-intensity and power exercises.


jbro_135


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A number of people on my team use hangboarding to supplement regular climbing and other exercises. The keys for them are to keep the volume very low and focus on increasing max strength by adding weight. They tend to cycle a few weeks of hangboarding with a few weeks off, so as not to overload themselves. Then we'll focus on other training objectives for a few weeks.

Don't try to do this before or after a 4 hour gym session. We only do 3 hour sessions once a week, and try to keep other sessions to two hours or less, with plenty of rest in between. Burning out or getting injured will set you back in a big way, and you won't see maximum gains if you're overtraining.

We do regular fitness testing on an apparatus that measures finger power, and the climbers following this program are definitely seeing gains, not just in climbing ability but in measurable finger strength. We also measure maximum campus throw distance, maximum two move campus ability, rockover testing for shoulder power, and maximum weighted pull-ups.


DouglasHunter


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jbro_135 wrote:
We do regular fitness testing on an apparatus that measures finger power, and the climbers following this program are definitely seeing gains, not just in climbing ability but in measurable finger strength. We also measure maximum campus throw distance, maximum two move campus ability, rockover testing for shoulder power, and maximum weighted pull-ups.

Have you published this field work anywhere? Or made it available for others to see?


jbro_135


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Re: [DouglasHunter] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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I'm not involved, i'm just on a team that gets tested. It's done through Flashed in Calgary. It's still in very early stages, so the tests are sometimes changing. I'm sure you could get in touch with them if you want to find out more.


mr.tastycakes


Feb 1, 2013, 3:32 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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I've had some success incorporating hangboard work into a periodization-for-dummies training program - 3 weeks of bouldering/finger strength training, followed by 3 weeks of routes/endurance training, then a week of rest (rinse and repeat).

Specifically, I've been doing max single hangs of 5-8 seconds as advocated by Dave Macleod (among others). That's 3 grips, 4 hangs per grip, with a minute between hangs, and 3 minutes rest between grips. That's less than 20 minutes for the workout. I do that 2 x per week during my bouldering phase, and once every 10 days or so for maintenance at other times. I don't do anything else except a thorough, movement-focused warmup on fingerboard days (45 min to 1 hour).

I spent my first 3-week cycle last fall dialing in my hangs, figuring out which hangboards at my gym I liked best, which grips to train, how much weight to add, etc. I sent my first plastic V7 (take it for what it's worth) near the end of that cycle. During the next fingerboard cycle I had my hangs dialed and was able to make an honest 15% increase in strength/weight ratio on both 4-finger and 3 finger open grips. I also "graduated" to the 45 degree sloper on the beastmaker 2000. During that cycle I sent 3 gym V6's over several sessions, none taking more than 5-10 tries. Last fall I was very inconsistent at that grade, now I expect a send.

So, yeah, I think fingerboarding has helped nudge me past a plateau I'd been on for the last 2 years (consistent bouldering grade from V5 to V6). I'm working endurance right now, but in a few weeks I'm back to the fingerboard and anxious to see if the gains continue and are sustainable in the long run. I'll report back.

The rockprodigy fingerboard routine ("repeaters") is a lot more time consuming than max hangs, and Dave Mac and Eva Lopez argue it works AE more than max strength.

Hope this helps.


strikehard


Feb 5, 2013, 8:38 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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did you find a conclusion ? what are you going to do after this topic ?
1)incorporating a hangboard workout into a regular climbing schedule
or
2)following a periodization plan and do it (hangingboard) at a proper intensity 2-3 times a week


lena_chita
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Feb 5, 2013, 10:45 AM
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Re: [strikehard] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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strikehard wrote:
did you find a conclusion ? what are you going to do after this topic ?
1)incorporating a hangboard workout into a regular climbing schedule
or
2)following a periodization plan and do it (hangingboard) at a proper intensity 2-3 times a week

I am going with choice (2). Finished hangboard phase (Went up 30 lb from where I started over the course of 7 weeks), and just started next phase.


wmfork


Feb 5, 2013, 1:19 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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I think it's a bit unfair to compare your gain at the end of each dedicated training phase to a program that incorporates those elements in a regular climbing schedule. A better gauge would be to compare the gains between cycles.

Last year, I went through some periodized training as well as some specific phases (for what I thought I was lacking at the moment, be it PE, strength, power). While the gain for each phase was impressive, it came at the expense of others (I could never achieve my max finger strength, power and endurance all at once, as evident on the routes I was projecting). At the end of the year, while I did become a stronger climber overall, it was by nowhere the amount I thought I'd achieve based on gains in individual phases (1-2 letter grades, on par or slightly better than the year before when I mostly climbed).

For me, the jury is still out on which is more effective in the long term. Although I do agree the specific workouts shouldn't be done as an after thought to general climbing (i.e. do them while you are fresh).

(This post was edited by wmfork on Feb 5, 2013, 1:26 PM)


lena_chita
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Feb 6, 2013, 10:51 AM
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Re: [wmfork] Incorporating hangboard into training [In reply to]
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wmfork wrote:
I think it's a bit unfair to compare your gain at the end of each dedicated training phase to a program that incorporates those elements in a regular climbing schedule. A better gauge would be to compare the gains between cycles.

I agree.

wmfork wrote:
Last year, I went through some periodized training as well as some specific phases (for what I thought I was lacking at the moment, be it PE, strength, power). While the gain for each phase was impressive, it came at the expense of others (I could never achieve my max finger strength, power and endurance all at once, as evident on the routes I was projecting). At the end of the year, while I did become a stronger climber overall, it was by nowhere the amount I thought I'd achieve based on gains in individual phases (1-2 letter grades, on par or slightly better than the year before when I mostly climbed).

I think there is research out there (as well as personal experience) that would indicate that you can't be at your maximum power AND maximum endurance at the same time, so that doesn't surprise me.

But, if your max "peak" power gets better, and your max "best" endurance capacity gets better, then even when you are in the in-between phase, you still are climbing better than before.

I am not sure I understand your description of how much stronger you got. You got 1-2 letter grades stronger than the previous year, when you just climbed, or you EXPECTED to get 1-2 letter grades stronger, based on results you were seeing with each phase of training, and you didn't actually redpoint 1-2 grades stronger than before the training?

Care to elaborate? Also, not to sound grade-ist, but it does sort of matter whether you are talking about improving from 5.10a to 5.10c after your training, or you are talking about improving from 5.13d to 5.14b.

wmfork wrote:
For me, the jury is still out on which is more effective in the long term. Although I do agree the specific workouts shouldn't be done as an after thought to general climbing (i.e. do them while you are fresh).

I guess I'll see how my personal experience goes. Agreed about the second part, of course.

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