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Halljt3
Dec 6, 2012, 2:55 AM
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So I happened to run across gear from 1996 (I was able to find some dates with some of the gear) that has never been used (Still had the price tags attached!) All gear appears to be in perfect condition. So the question is would you use it? This is what I got:
-1 New England KM III 60m static rope
-2 Petzl Mercury C31 harnesses
-1 Petzl Voltage C60 chest harness
-3 Wild Country Ropeman Ascenders
-2 Petzl Croll Ascenders
-5 Figure 8 Rappel Devices Brand: Cassid?
-11 Omega Pacific Oval non lockers
Again all this gear has never been used. I'm more concerned about the nylon products.
So what do you think?
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socalclimber
Dec 6, 2012, 3:03 AM
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Halljt3 wrote: So I happened to run across gear from 1996 (I was able to find some dates with some of the gear) that has never been used (Still had the price tags attached!) All gear appears to be in perfect condition. So the question is would you use it? This is what I got: -1 New England KM III 60m static rope -2 Petzl Mercury C31 harnesses -1 Petzl Voltage C60 chest harness -3 Wild Country Ropeman Ascenders -2 Petzl Croll Ascenders -5 Figure 8 Rappel Devices Brand: Cassid? -11 Omega Pacific Oval non lockers Again all this gear has never been used. I'm more concerned about the nylon products. So what do you think?
-1 Rope TOSS
-2 Harnesses TOSS
-1 Chest harness TOSS
-3 Ascenders FINE
-2 Croll Ascenders FINE
-5 Figure 8 Rap device FINE (who would want one, much less 5)
-11 Biners FINE
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Dec 6, 2012, 3:05 AM)
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acorneau
Dec 6, 2012, 3:10 AM
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Halljt3 wrote: So I happened to run across gear from 1996 (I was able to find some dates with some of the gear) that has never been used (Still had the price tags attached!) All gear appears to be in perfect condition. So the question is would you use it? This is what I got: -1 New England KM III 60m static rope -2 Petzl Mercury C31 harnesses -1 Petzl Voltage C60 chest harness -3 Wild Country Ropeman Ascenders -2 Petzl Croll Ascenders -5 Figure 8 Rappel Devices Brand: Cassid? -11 Omega Pacific Oval non lockers Again all this gear has never been used. I'm more concerned about the nylon products. So what do you think?
Assuming no use the hardware is fine but throw away the harness and rope.
Oh, and it's "Cassin", as in Riccardo Cassin, and the company is now owned by CAMP.
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Xavieous
Dec 6, 2012, 3:36 AM
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Socalclimber's right. Toss nylon; it breaks down over time. The metal is still good.
I've heard several times from various official and unofficial sources that the time limit is 5 years for ropes. I hate throwing out anything that could still be usable as much as the next person, but our lives rely on the rope.
(This post was edited by Xavieous on Dec 6, 2012, 3:37 AM)
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Halljt3
Dec 6, 2012, 3:49 AM
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I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"?
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Halljt3
Dec 6, 2012, 3:51 AM
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acorneau wrote: Halljt3 wrote: So I happened to run across gear from 1996 (I was able to find some dates with some of the gear) that has never been used (Still had the price tags attached!) All gear appears to be in perfect condition. So the question is would you use it? This is what I got: -1 New England KM III 60m static rope -2 Petzl Mercury C31 harnesses -1 Petzl Voltage C60 chest harness -3 Wild Country Ropeman Ascenders -2 Petzl Croll Ascenders -5 Figure 8 Rappel Devices Brand: Cassid? -11 Omega Pacific Oval non lockers Again all this gear has never been used. I'm more concerned about the nylon products. So what do you think? Assuming no use the hardware is fine but throw away the harness and rope. Oh, and it's "Cassin", as in Riccardo Cassin, and the company is now owned by CAMP.
Thanks for the info about Riccardo Cassin. Had a hard time finding any info.
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dagibbs
Dec 6, 2012, 4:08 AM
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socalclimber wrote: -1 Rope TOSS -2 Harnesses TOSS -1 Chest harness TOSS
Agree about the metal being fine, and toss the harnesses.
The rope -- I wouldn't use it in a climbing (or other life-critical) application, but it is likely to still be perfectly fine rope, say if you wanted to tie a canoe to a dock, or hang an awning over a camp site or something like that. So, not actually toss.
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socalclimber
Dec 6, 2012, 4:11 AM
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Good point. I have close to a mile of old climbing ropes that are "garage" ropes.
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dynosore
Dec 6, 2012, 4:13 AM
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Halljt3 wrote: I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"?
It doesn't to any appreciable extent. But, a rope that old with an unknown history isn't something I'd bet my life on.
I have a nylon bull rope I've used for tree cutting for 15 years. My dad gave it to me and it was probably 10 years old then. It is still strong enough to drag a 1/2 ton pickup with the brakes on across the dirt.
PS I'm a polymer chemist so I'm not talking out of my rear here.
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Xavieous
Dec 6, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Halljt3 wrote: I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"?
You intrigued me to dig a little deeper and see if I could base what I said on any type of fact. So I digged and digged and digged. Google scholar, multiple research articles-not good enough.
There just isn't a lot out there on the effects of time to nylon.
BUT I did find this little diddy about some basic principles of nylon cables. The usage is much different but Nylon is Nylon, no matter how it was molded(I assume).
If what I'm reading is correct the original molding/creation of nylon can be undone by the effects of variable temperature and humidity. Unless the rope remained in a vacuum sealed bag, a constant temperature of around 70 degrees Fahrenheit and did not have any perforations in the bag, I wouldn't use the rope because of the possible effect of those two factors over time.
I'll leave the article hear and let you read it so as to make your own decisions:
http://www.cable-ties.com/catalog/pdfs/nylon66.pdf
Good luck and climb safe!
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Halljt3
Dec 6, 2012, 4:49 AM
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Thanks for the replies / research. I too agree that the nylon products I received shouldn't be used for climbing. I really don't have a lot of background information about the gear. When i picked it up it was being stored in a un-conditioned garage, exposed to who knows what. Not worth risking my life or anyone else's.
But I must say, I highly doubt that any of the nylon products I received would fail, especially if stored properly. I say this with the intent of further discussion about nylon, and the "break down over time". Personal experience and research is appreciated.
I apologize Xavieous, I'm unable to read the article due to the PDF format. I'm several Apple software updates behind. I will take a look at it on my work computer when I get a chance.
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USnavy
Dec 6, 2012, 5:46 AM
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Xavieous wrote: I've heard several times from various official and unofficial sources that the time limit is 5 years for ropes.
That is silly and just plain incorrect. Quoted from Beal:
Lifetime = Time in storage before first use + time in use.
- The lifetime is limited to 15 years.
- The lifetime depends on the frequency and mode of use.
- Mechanical demands, abrasion, UV and humidity slowly degrade the properties of the rope.
Duration of storage :
In good storage conditions BEAL PPE may be left for up to 5 years before first use without affecting the duration of its future time in use.
Time in use :
The potential lifetime of BEAL PPE in use is up to a maximum of 10 years.
Attention : This is a potential time in use. An item of PPE may be destroyed during its first use. It is the inspection and control which determines if this product must be scrapped sooner. Between uses, appropriate storage is essential.
http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/technicite-corde-page.php
(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 6, 2012, 5:48 AM)
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kennoyce
Dec 6, 2012, 2:41 PM
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USnavy wrote: Xavieous wrote: I've heard several times from various official and unofficial sources that the time limit is 5 years for ropes. That is silly and just plain incorrect. Quoted from Beal: Lifetime = Time in storage before first use + time in use.
- The lifetime is limited to 15 years.
- The lifetime depends on the frequency and mode of use.
- Mechanical demands, abrasion, UV and humidity slowly degrade the properties of the rope.
Duration of storage :
In good storage conditions BEAL PPE may be left for up to 5 years before first use without affecting the duration of its future time in use.
Time in use :
The potential lifetime of BEAL PPE in use is up to a maximum of 10 years.
Attention : This is a potential time in use. An item of PPE may be destroyed during its first use. It is the inspection and control which determines if this product must be scrapped sooner. Between uses, appropriate storage is essential. http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/technicite-corde-page.php
Just what I was going to quote. Beal says 15 years, and once again, they most certainly have to cover themselves so they are going to be conservative with their estimates.
edit to clarify: I'm not saying that the OP should use a rope with an unknown history, I just don't want this 5 year thing to be further spread due to ignorance.
To the OP, yeah, trash the soft-goods, the hardware is good to go.
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Dec 6, 2012, 4:59 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Dec 6, 2012, 4:37 PM
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Halljt3 wrote: Thanks for the replies / research. I too agree that the nylon products I received shouldn't be used for climbing. I really don't have a lot of background information about the gear. When i picked it up it was being stored in a un-conditioned garage, exposed to who knows what. Not worth risking my life or anyone else's. But I must say, I highly doubt that any of the nylon products I received would fail, especially if stored properly. I say this with the intent of further discussion about nylon, and the "break down over time". Personal experience and research is appreciated. I apologize Xavieous, I'm unable to read the article due to the PDF format. I'm several Apple software updates behind. I will take a look at it on my work computer when I get a chance.
How do you know for sure that it was stored properly? Toss the soft stuff. If you don't know, don't play around.
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Halljt3
Dec 6, 2012, 9:26 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Halljt3 wrote: Thanks for the replies / research. I too agree that the nylon products I received shouldn't be used for climbing. I really don't have a lot of background information about the gear. When i picked it up it was being stored in a un-conditioned garage, exposed to who knows what. Not worth risking my life or anyone else's. But I must say, I highly doubt that any of the nylon products I received would fail, especially if stored properly. I say this with the intent of further discussion about nylon, and the "break down over time". Personal experience and research is appreciated. I apologize Xavieous, I'm unable to read the article due to the PDF format. I'm several Apple software updates behind. I will take a look at it on my work computer when I get a chance. How do you know for sure that it was stored properly? Toss the soft stuff. If you don't know, don't play around. |
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donald949
Dec 7, 2012, 11:38 PM
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dynosore wrote: Halljt3 wrote: I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"? It doesn't to any appreciable extent. But, a rope that old with an unknown history isn't something I'd bet my life on. I have a nylon bull rope I've used for tree cutting for 15 years. My dad gave it to me and it was probably 10 years old then. It is still strong enough to drag a 1/2 ton pickup with the brakes on across the dirt. PS I'm a polymer chemist so I'm not talking out of my rear here.
Here's an article from the Italian Alpine club discussing the aging of nylon, the affects of UV, and wear. With wear being the main cause of degradation.
http://www.caimateriali.org/index.php?id=41
Now, having said all that, I would not recommend you use the 16+ old soft goods for climbing. I use this info to asses the condition of my own equipment rather just retire it after 5 years. Heavily used and well worn ropes may not even last 5 years. Climb Safe.
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dynosore
Dec 8, 2012, 2:41 AM
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Xavieous wrote: Halljt3 wrote: I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"? You intrigued me to dig a little deeper and see if I could base what I said on any type of fact. So I digged and digged and digged. Google scholar, multiple research articles-not good enough. There just isn't a lot out there on the effects of time to nylon. BUT I did find this little diddy about some basic principles of nylon cables. The usage is much different but Nylon is Nylon, no matter how it was molded(I assume). If what I'm reading is correct the original molding/creation of nylon can be undone by the effects of variable temperature and humidity. Unless the rope remained in a vacuum sealed bag, a constant temperature of around 70 degrees Fahrenheit and did not have any perforations in the bag, I wouldn't use the rope because of the possible effect of those two factors over time. I'll leave the article hear and let you read it so as to make your own decisions: http://www.cable-ties.com/catalog/pdfs/nylon66.pdf Good luck and climb safe!
First of all, nylon climbing ropes are by and large made of nylon 6, not 6,6. "nylon is nylon" No. Different types have very different properties and applications. Additives can change these drastically as well.
Secondly, nylon fibers are spun, not molded. It is an entirely different process and I have done both many times.
You process nylon in a relatively dry state because if there's much water it will foam and cause all types of problems. BUT if it's too dry it won't process well either.
A rope or any other nylon article is going to come to moisture equilibrium with its environment. But it can always be dried out again if you get it too wet. The properties are only going to come permanently "undone" if it's subjected to heat or chemical exposure.
There are many good books and nylon aging has been understood for decades. Start with the Handbook of Polymer Chemistry if you're really interested.
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USnavy
Dec 8, 2012, 3:33 AM
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dynosore wrote: Halljt3 wrote: I have also seen the 5 year rule through manufacturer recommendations. I have also heard nylon breaks down over time. Now with that said, manufactures absolutely have to cover there ass... not to mention need us to buy new gear. If nylon is properly stored (No exposure to UV, chemicals, moisture, etc.) what physical properties cause nylon to "break down over time"? But, a rope that old with an unknown history isn't something I'd bet my life on.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 8, 2012, 3:35 AM)
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