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flesh


Dec 8, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Re: [yanqui] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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I know how marginal tax rates work. If you make One million a year in Cali and have a one million dollar home and pay 9.x percent in sales tax, plus any additional random taxes, what's % of you income do you pay in tax? Assuming a top marginal rate of 39.6 (likely much higher in the next decade), after common deductions your over 50%.

I'm not here to argue, I was just interested in how the left feels about taxes. I'm center right on economic issues and center left on social issues myself.

It's interesting during that twenty year period the top marginal rate was 90%, I'd be interested to see what types of deductions/exemptions etc during the same period.

As someone who is motivated by money I'd like to get to the 7 figure level one day and believe it's possible in the not too distant future.

On the one hand it seems ridiculous to pay 90% tax at any level, right now it seems like I would refuse to grow my businesses beyond that point. If you have a company prosperous enough to generate a 7 figure personal income, it's likely the business model is condusive to further growth. Why would you?

On the other hand I remind myself of my close friend's fathers company that sold to microsoft for 70 million (what is now microsoft golf). My friend's fathers share was 40 million which he gave 30 of to his employee's (programmer's received around 450k who had 60k/year incomes i.e) and it seems virtuous. He went on to starting another business that generated him 7 figures before dying early at 59. However, nobody made him. In some ways I can see how if I made 7 figures for many years I wouldn't care so much. I would prefer to distribute my personal income to my employees as quarterly profit sharing rather than give them to a inefficient goverment.

One of the largest problems I see , based on personal experience, is where will fledgling entrepreneurs get the money they need to start/grow a company that's capable of generating serious revenue and therefore create great paying jobs?

You may say venture capital, the banks, government etc, the obvious solutions to someone who hasn't tried it.

When I'm trying to raise 100k-1 million to start or grow a company I find that no one is there for me, I must do it on my own. That means saving money and growing personal and business lines of credit. Others don't seem to believe in my business plans or my plans don't meet the criteria. Even though I've had a high income for a decade, have perfect credit, and have never failed in 4 different businesses.

BTW, go check my video of Hell belly, I've been working this rig for 2 years! I'm putting it in the video section now.


(This post was edited by flesh on Dec 8, 2012, 12:05 PM)


USnavy


Dec 8, 2012, 2:11 PM
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Re: [camhead] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As an aside: it doesn't take much to reach that 57% in Sweden (about US$80K), which is apparently about 20% of the population. Which was my point about knowing people who have reached it.

With such a high tax rate, how can it be that Sweden has a healthy budget surplus and an economy that in many ways is outperforming the rest of the Eurozone and the US?

For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ontrasting-economies

Can anyone of you Republicoids explain how this fits into your theory that low taxes for the wealthy and budget cuts for government are so good for the economy?

exactly
draw off of a potential workforce with dwindling math skills?
Maybe because those "skills" have a pretty narrow range of usefulness in real world in most career fields. Sure, if you are an engineer or a scientist, math is critical. But please tell me how differential equations is going to help an MBA grad manage a typical American workforce. I am majoring in IT security and I have to take a boatload of math classes in the near future: advanced algebra, calculus, trig, ect. Well, having already worked in the field for five years, I can tell you I will learn absolutely nothing useful in any of those classes. The most advanced math I have ever had to preform at work was basic arithmetic, and I worked as a shift supervisor in a tier III support NOC, which in the IT world is a fairly senior department. Students that are majoring outside of fields that require math in their selected field would better benefit from taking more core classes that are directly relevant to their major, or other general education classes that have a wider range of application. Plus let's face it, when it comes to math it is all "use it or loose it." No one remembers advanced math if they dont actually use it, and if you dont remember it, there was little point in taking the class in the first place! So not to say that math is completely worthless, but in many majors, students would better benefit form more relevant classes that they can actually use in their field.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 8, 2012, 2:26 PM)


petsfed


Dec 8, 2012, 2:27 PM
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Re: [USnavy] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Maybe because those "skills" are mostly useless in the real world in most career fields? Sure, if you are an engineer or a scientist, math is critical, but please do tell how differential equations is going to help an MBA grad manage a typical American workforce.

All right, so I'm completing a masters in condense matter physics. Since you readily discount the need for math, or engineers, I'm going to assume you don't know what that means. It is the physics of every single electronic device you have used in the last 20 years.

It seems like such a degree would make me eminently hire-able. Alas, no. By and large, we've convinced our high school students that "whatever your job is, you probably don't need more than basic arithmetic". Which is true if the mid-income earners of your country are mostly tech-support, history teachers, or these magical MBA managers who have zero understanding of what their employees actually *do*. The reality is that our borderline-illiterate, fundamentally anti-math students become borderline-illiterate, completely-unable-to-perform-basic-calculations workers, and any company that hires a large number of them is, of necessity, not producing anything technical worth selling.

MBAs manage numerical analysts and engineers, who need a pretty robust mathematical understanding, even if its not calculus per se. Linear algebra is absolutely foundational to computer programming, as it applies to everything, not just calculations. If you want to peak out as Burger-flipper III, sure, you don't need math. But to paraphrase, if your job in STEM doesn't require advanced math, it must be a very easy job. The kind robots will be doing soon.


gunkiemike


Dec 8, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Re: [USnavy] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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The kind of math weakness I see every day (I'm a HS science teacher) isn't students struggling to master differential equations (or whatever its high school-level equivalent is). It's kids who can't tell you what 10% of 50 is. Can't divide 5 by 5 without their calculator. Can't make change for a $9.06 purchase when I give them a ten dollar bill and six cents. Don't know what half of an eighth is. Can't round 57.0942 to the nearest tenth.

And spelling and grammar? Don't even get me started.


guangzhou


Dec 8, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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As someone who taught Middle School Math for nearly a decade overseas, I can tell you for sure that Math is a big problem in America. A slight problem in Europe.

Every year, I would have western parents of my Middle School students come and ask me Math Questions so they could help their kids with Math Homework.

They were so many that I started a "Parent Refresher Class" during my prep period. Worried that none of them would come in public, I reminded them that if you don't use math you lose it and that they had not Multiplies/Divided fractions in along time. (None of them are carpenters) This made them very comfortable coming.

One year I had 35 parents learning two-step equations at 10:00 and their kids coming in the next day to study a similar lesson.

Upper level math not only teaches the subject matter, but it also teaches people to follow procedure and understand complex ideas.

In all honesty, reading this thread shows me how little some people on this site understand basic math concepts.


yanqui


Dec 9, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As an aside: it doesn't take much to reach that 57% in Sweden (about US$80K), which is apparently about 20% of the population. Which was my point about knowing people who have reached it.

With such a high tax rate, how can it be that Sweden has a healthy budget surplus and an economy that in many ways is outperforming the rest of the Eurozone and the US?

For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ontrasting-economies

Can anyone of you Republicoids explain how this fits into your theory that low taxes for the wealthy and budget cuts for government are so good for the economy?

exactly

I suppose we already knew this, but as we can see once again, the answer to the question is: "no".


(This post was edited by yanqui on Dec 9, 2012, 9:22 AM)


camhead


Dec 9, 2012, 9:27 AM
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Re: [yanqui] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As an aside: it doesn't take much to reach that 57% in Sweden (about US$80K), which is apparently about 20% of the population. Which was my point about knowing people who have reached it.

With such a high tax rate, how can it be that Sweden has a healthy budget surplus and an economy that in many ways is outperforming the rest of the Eurozone and the US?

For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ontrasting-economies

Can anyone of you Republicoids explain how this fits into your theory that low taxes for the wealthy and budget cuts for government are so good for the economy?

exactly

I suppose we already knew this, but as we can see once again, the answer to the question is: "no".

Actually, the theory makes complete sense in a world where as a former Bush aide said, we create our own reality. A reality in which climate change and evolution do not exist, in which our nation was built upon 20th century evangelical principles, in which women's bodies do not conceive in cases of rape, and in which comprehensive polls and statistics are not predictors of elections.


atg200


Dec 9, 2012, 2:47 PM
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chadnsc


Dec 9, 2012, 3:22 PM
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Re: [atg200] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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atg200 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Maybe because those "skills" have a pretty narrow range of usefulness in real world in most career fields. Sure, if you are an engineer or a scientist, math is critical. But please tell me how differential equations is going to help an MBA grad manage a typical American workforce. I am majoring in IT security and I have to take a boatload of math classes in the near future: advanced algebra, calculus, trig, ect. Well, having already worked in the field for five years, I can tell you I will learn absolutely nothing useful in any of those classes. The most advanced math I have ever had to preform at work was basic arithmetic, and I worked as a shift supervisor in a tier III support NOC, which in the IT world is a fairly senior department. Students that are majoring outside of fields that require math in their selected field would better benefit from taking more core classes that are directly relevant to their major, or other general education classes that have a wider range of application. Plus let's face it, when it comes to math it is all "use it or loose it." No one remembers advanced math if they dont actually use it, and if you dont remember it, there was little point in taking the class in the first place! So not to say that math is completely worthless, but in many majors, students would better benefit form more relevant classes that they can actually use in their field.

How are you majoring in IT Security and you don't see a need to know advanced math? You can get by with basic arithmetic if you are doing completely entry level IT security grunt work, but that is really about it. I work at a medium sized banking institution, and nearly all of our high level IT security people have masters or doctorates in math(and certainly not in IT Security - that sounds like a bullshit degree from University of Phoenix or somewhere like that).

USnavy majored in bullshit. Tongue


curt


Dec 9, 2012, 5:41 PM
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Re: [camhead] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As an aside: it doesn't take much to reach that 57% in Sweden (about US$80K), which is apparently about 20% of the population. Which was my point about knowing people who have reached it.

With such a high tax rate, how can it be that Sweden has a healthy budget surplus and an economy that in many ways is outperforming the rest of the Eurozone and the US?

For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ontrasting-economies

Can anyone of you Republicoids explain how this fits into your theory that low taxes for the wealthy and budget cuts for government are so good for the economy?

exactly

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/...round_the_world#List

And this: http://www.marketwatch.com/...ate-to-22-2012-09-13

The United States has the lowest personal income taxes and highest corporate taxes in the first world.

Seriously, if you were a company, would you move here, given that you have to pay more taxes than in Europe, AND provide health insurance, AND draw off of a potential workforce with dwindling math and science skills?

The actual corporate tax rate here is largely a red herring. If, as many suggest, we lower the corporate tax rate, we need to simultaneously close all of the corporate tax loop holes.

GE famously paid not one dollar in US income tax for 2010, on $14.2 billion in profits.

http://abcnews.go.com/...3224558#.UMU9C6V7FIc

And, GE is not unique in that regard.

Curt


guangzhou


Dec 9, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
atg200 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Maybe because those "skills" have a pretty narrow range of usefulness in real world in most career fields. Sure, if you are an engineer or a scientist, math is critical. But please tell me how differential equations is going to help an MBA grad manage a typical American workforce. I am majoring in IT security and I have to take a boatload of math classes in the near future: advanced algebra, calculus, trig, ect. Well, having already worked in the field for five years, I can tell you I will learn absolutely nothing useful in any of those classes. The most advanced math I have ever had to preform at work was basic arithmetic, and I worked as a shift supervisor in a tier III support NOC, which in the IT world is a fairly senior department. Students that are majoring outside of fields that require math in their selected field would better benefit from taking more core classes that are directly relevant to their major, or other general education classes that have a wider range of application. Plus let's face it, when it comes to math it is all "use it or loose it." No one remembers advanced math if they dont actually use it, and if you dont remember it, there was little point in taking the class in the first place! So not to say that math is completely worthless, but in many majors, students would better benefit form more relevant classes that they can actually use in their field.

How are you majoring in IT Security and you don't see a need to know advanced math? You can get by with basic arithmetic if you are doing completely entry level IT security grunt work, but that is really about it. I work at a medium sized banking institution, and nearly all of our high level IT security people have masters or doctorates in math(and certainly not in IT Security - that sounds like a bullshit degree from University of Phoenix or somewhere like that).

USnavy majored in bullshit. Tongue

He only works half a year, spends the other half living in his car. Working on a Graduate degree in IT security. Already does IT security work.

Wish he would get his story straight, that's for sure.


camhead


Dec 10, 2012, 6:21 AM
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Re: [curt] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
camhead wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
yanqui wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As an aside: it doesn't take much to reach that 57% in Sweden (about US$80K), which is apparently about 20% of the population. Which was my point about knowing people who have reached it.

With such a high tax rate, how can it be that Sweden has a healthy budget surplus and an economy that in many ways is outperforming the rest of the Eurozone and the US?

For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...ontrasting-economies

Can anyone of you Republicoids explain how this fits into your theory that low taxes for the wealthy and budget cuts for government are so good for the economy?

exactly

This: http://en.wikipedia.org/...round_the_world#List

And this: http://www.marketwatch.com/...ate-to-22-2012-09-13

The United States has the lowest personal income taxes and highest corporate taxes in the first world.

Seriously, if you were a company, would you move here, given that you have to pay more taxes than in Europe, AND provide health insurance, AND draw off of a potential workforce with dwindling math and science skills?

The actual corporate tax rate here is largely a red herring. If, as many suggest, we lower the corporate tax rate, we need to simultaneously close all of the corporate tax loop holes.

GE famously paid not one dollar in US income tax for 2010, on $14.2 billion in profits.

http://abcnews.go.com/...3224558#.UMU9C6V7FIc

And, GE is not unique in that regard.

Curt

Hmm, good point, I had not known that. Plus, there are the massive tax breaks and subsidies that large businesses have come to expect from cities as well, which that recent NYT series covered.


atg200


Dec 10, 2012, 7:00 AM
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scrapedape


Dec 10, 2012, 7:28 AM
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Re: [atg200] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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atg200 wrote:
I can't imagine the corporate tax rates will be touched too much. Big companies don't particularly mind them - they don't end up paying very much, it makes CFOs feel important, and it is a white collar jobs program for accounting majors. The big accounting firms spend vast amounts of money lobbying to keep the tax code complex and themselves employed.

Smaller business are screwed, but our tax code is ideally suited for screwing over the middle class, keeping the poor just afloat enough to not become major problems, and letting the rich keep accumulating ever larger shares of wealth.

This is a really key point. Politicians have this weird fetishization of small business, but complexity in the tax code inherently favors larger enterprises, since the transaction costs of optimizing for the tax code are a relatively lower cost for larger businesses.


scrapedape


Dec 10, 2012, 7:38 AM
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Re: [USnavy] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
But please tell me how differential equations is going to help an MBA grad manage a typical American workforce.

Ok, serious answer: this is exactly what system dynamics modeling is all about.

In reply to:
Why do so many business strategies fail? Why do so many others fail to produce lasting results? Why do many businesses suffer from periodic crises and fluctuating sales, earnings, and morale? Why do some firms grow while others stagnate? And how can a firm identify and design high-leverage policies, policies that are not thwarted by unanticipated side effects?...

You can read all about in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/...an+business+dynamics

You can also view free course materials from an MBA course at the Sloan School of Management:

http://ocw.mit.edu/...ss-policy-fall-2003/

http://ocw.mit.edu/...namics-ii-fall-2010/

This is stuff that MBAs DO learn because it IS useful. And it is differential equations to the core.


lena_chita
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Dec 10, 2012, 8:12 AM
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Re: [rmsusa] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
I do believe that there should be a higher sales tax on luxury items, and that the definition of luxury items should be expanded quite a bit, beyond just higher-end fancy cars.

You do realize that you're calling for a significant complication of an already way too complicated system? Sales tax is run by states, counties and municipalities. People who sell online incur big costs collecting and remitting those taxes already. More complication is a mistake. I think you're calling for another decade long debate about just what is a luxury item, putting off simplification again. I think it's a B-A-D idea, but that's just my opinion.

I think it would be FAIR to impose a higher tax rate on the luxury items-- but i don't think it is the most efficient way to collect a fair share of taxes from people making more money.

I was just responding to flesh's question of what is fair.

I believe that the sales tax is imposing a greater burden on low-income earners who are buying mostly necessities, while high-income earners are paying the same percentage sales tax for buying non-essential luxury goods.


rmsusa


Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I believe that the sales tax is imposing a greater burden on low-income earners who are buying mostly necessities, while high-income earners are paying the same percentage sales tax for buying non-essential luxury goods.

Only slightly tongue in cheek:

You're right, and my first candidate for a special luxury tax is all climbing equipment.


camhead


Dec 12, 2012, 10:52 AM
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Re: [rmsusa] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
I believe that the sales tax is imposing a greater burden on low-income earners who are buying mostly necessities, while high-income earners are paying the same percentage sales tax for buying non-essential luxury goods.

Only slightly tongue in cheek:

You're right, and my first candidate for a special luxury tax is all climbing equipment.

Climbing is pretty much the definition of unnecessary luxury, and IMO should be taxed more than essentials. During the recent dramz about the possibility of a tax or tariff or whatever on outdoor performance shoes, it was funny to see so many Obama supporters flip their shit at the prospect of paying a bit more for climbing shoes.


petsfed


Dec 12, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [camhead] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
it was funny to see so many Obama supporters flip their shit at the prospect of paying a bit more for climbing shoes.

I saw it as the classic "I call myself a dirtbag who has sacrificed all luxury to pursue my spiritual destiny, but really I'm just a cheap-ass".

Its also the Boulder phenomenon: I'll happily feel self-righteous about buying fair-trade, organic products, provided they're on sale.


SylviaSmile


Dec 12, 2012, 10:29 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
The kind of math weakness I see every day (I'm a HS science teacher) isn't students struggling to master differential equations (or whatever its high school-level equivalent is). It's kids who can't tell you what 10% of 50 is. Can't divide 5 by 5 without their calculator. Can't make change for a $9.06 purchase when I give them a ten dollar bill and six cents. Don't know what half of an eighth is. Can't round 57.0942 to the nearest tenth.

And spelling and grammar? Don't even get me started.

Can we all agree that people who are in professions such as teaching or caring for the elderly should get serious tax breaks? After all, they're not really in it for the profit . . .


lena_chita
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Dec 13, 2012, 5:31 AM
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Re: [rmsusa] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
I believe that the sales tax is imposing a greater burden on low-income earners who are buying mostly necessities, while high-income earners are paying the same percentage sales tax for buying non-essential luxury goods.

Only slightly tongue in cheek:

You're right, and my first candidate for a special luxury tax is all climbing equipment.

It won't be the FIRST candidate, but yes, absolutely. Climbing is a luxury, and I was not excluding it from luxury tax, if such thing were ever implemented.


rmsusa


Dec 14, 2012, 2:04 PM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] What % tax is fair? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Can we all agree that people who are in professions such as teaching or caring for the elderly should get serious tax breaks?

No.

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