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Bowline or figure eight?
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knudenoggin


Dec 12, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [moedersin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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moedersin wrote:
John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture
because his bowline wasn't tied properly,
I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.

The speed of information seems proportionate to its lightness of facts!

At least, in this present case, I've searched (the Taco, mainly) for some
statement from this surviving, well-initiated rockclimber,
as to what exactly occurred. There was a cryptic statement
put forward allegedly on his behalf that the accident resulted
"from an unfinished knot" --that inexact wording
is feritle for speculation, but for knowledge, not so much.

*kN*

As I posted @ST:
In reply to:
In reply to:
**I guess** "unfinished" could mean 2 things:


But, for crying out loud, WHY ARE WE GUESSING?!

The conveyance of "information" via the Net is so
damn fast when unweighted by care in checking facts ... .

Already, there is another "bowline came untied" article fueling
lines of R&I, no doubt building some preponderance of evidence
after the fatal UK case, about which RGold & I tried to point
out that certain key bits of information --i.p., whether in fact
any actual >>knot<< was tied-- were unknown.

HERE, we have connection to the (thankfully, surviving) user;
how about actual-factual details,
vs. the usual this-appears-to-support-my-agenda spewing?

*kN*


(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Dec 13, 2012, 10:34 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #102 of 113 (1618 views)
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Re: [healyje] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.


iknowfear


Dec 13, 2012, 2:25 AM
Post #103 of 113 (1574 views)
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Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 640

Re: [notapplicable] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

could have been a wrong munter, as well, I guess.


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 13, 2012, 11:09 AM
Post #104 of 113 (1539 views)
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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If it is in a gym then whatever they require you to use. If it is anywhere else or if the gym allows both then whatever you are most comfortable with.

I am most comfortable with a figure 8 because that is what all of the gyms I have climbed in require and therefore it is also what I am most comfortable with outside.

Both knots are safe when tied correctly. The key is to use the one that you are most likely to tie correctly. Typically that is the one you use most often.


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #105 of 113 (1531 views)
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Re: [notapplicable] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

What dictates an unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"?

Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed?

I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Dec 13, 2012, 11:32 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

What dictates and unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"?

Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed?

I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?

In both case the rope was simply threaded thru the tie-in points and the figure-8 never retraced. I think this is the most common error that is likely to result in injury/death. I doubt many people stop halfway thru the retracing process (I'm sure it's not unheard of though) and a missing backup or finish is not likely to result in knot failure with the figure-8.


bearbreeder


Dec 13, 2012, 11:56 AM
Post #107 of 113 (1509 views)
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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if you have a well done figure 8 with a fist full of tail you dont need any backup ...

i wont speak to the bowline because everyone has their own personal favorite variation and finish ... which tends to make partner checks a woozy Wink

use whatever knot you want ... but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people

Tongue


granite_grrl


Dec 13, 2012, 3:45 PM
Post #108 of 113 (1469 views)
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Re: [bearbreeder] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people

Probably because most experienced people tend to use bowlines.


bearbreeder


Dec 13, 2012, 4:05 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
Probably because most experienced people tend to use bowlines.

source?

Wink


healyje


Dec 13, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I suspect most experienced climbers use figure eights unless they climb steep lines or roofs. Using a figure eight in those circumstances can surely be done, but is a lousy use of one's time and energy. So I would suspect most experienced climber screwups with knots would be with figure eights, not bowlines.

Also, not all bowlines are remotely equal - some are more prone to screwing up or not finishing than others. My double bowline with a Czech finish is all but immune to both as it's either it's initially tied or it's just a straight piece of rope through your tie-in points and the fact I go through the tie-in points twice on the way to finishing it adds a kind of built in check of sorts when tying it.



Pretty much the only way to screw it up would be to get slightly more than halfway through with it so it was stable enough to not be a straight piece of rope, then get interrupted to some other task or good-looking distraction, and never return to completing it. Could happen I suppose, but after this many years of lead roped-soling I'm pretty relentless in the self-checking my tie-in.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 13, 2012, 4:39 PM)


EdBustamante


Dec 14, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #111 of 113 (1411 views)
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser to untie dose not seem like a good quality .


herites


Dec 14, 2012, 5:58 AM
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Re: [healyje] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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It's been a while since I asked, nowaday I use that knot, with a slightly different finish.



(This post was edited by herites on Dec 14, 2012, 6:15 AM)


marc801


Dec 14, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #113 of 113 (1385 views)
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Re: [EdBustamante] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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EdBustamante wrote:
Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser [sic] to untie dose [sic] not seem like a good quality .
You're misunderstanding the "easier to untie" aspect of the bowline. Specifically, you're neglecting the key clarifying phrase "[easier to untie]...after being weighted in a fall." Both are equally easy to untie if they have not been weighted.

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