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bearbreeder


Dec 21, 2012, 12:28 PM
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hardware store quicklinks
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for those worried about deadly dyneema/PASes you better not clip these either ...

tests of quicklinks and other fixed gear

http://www.planetmountain.com/...l=2&keyid=40417#


For a long time climbers have top-roped routes and lowered-off using "hardware" carabiners. Probably we will continue to do so for a long time still: there are so many connectors out there that substituting them all immediately is simply not plausible.
The loads generated on single pitches and at belays are unlikely to be so high as to break these carabiners. Having said that, when top-roping it is best to add your own carabiner.
It is important to note that "hardware" carabiners are the worst carabiners a climber / alpinist can clip to his or her harness. They couldn't even be sold unless marked with "not for climbing". I'll repeat the concept: even an old, worn "CE" carabiner is better than a new "hardware" carabiner.
The same holds true, though less seriously, for non "CE" maillon rapides.
And finally, if in doubt, every piece of fixed gear is weaker than your worst quickdraw.


Wink


redlude97


Dec 21, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
for those worried about deadly dyneema/PASes you better not clip these either ...

tests of quicklinks and other fixed gear

http://www.planetmountain.com/...l=2&keyid=40417#


For a long time climbers have top-roped routes and lowered-off using "hardware" carabiners. Probably we will continue to do so for a long time still: there are so many connectors out there that substituting them all immediately is simply not plausible.
The loads generated on single pitches and at belays are unlikely to be so high as to break these carabiners. Having said that, when top-roping it is best to add your own carabiner.
It is important to note that "hardware" carabiners are the worst carabiners a climber / alpinist can clip to his or her harness. They couldn't even be sold unless marked with "not for climbing". I'll repeat the concept: even an old, worn "CE" carabiner is better than a new "hardware" carabiner.
The same holds true, though less seriously, for non "CE" maillon rapides.
And finally, if in doubt, every piece of fixed gear is weaker than your worst quickdraw.


Wink
I've never seen hardware carabiners used, only quicklinks. The line you should highlight is the one directly below for the maillon rapides(quicklinks). Since I'm just rapping/lowering off that fixed hardware, I'm not too worried and its redundant. YMMV


marc801


Dec 21, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
for those worried about deadly dyneema/PASes you better not clip these either ...

tests of quicklinks and other fixed gear
They weren't quicklinks that were tested - they were hardware store carabiners. Your post title and the sentence fragment above are wildly inaccurate.

In the article referenced, it states:
"Every "hardware" carabiner sucks, to say the least, whether they are new, old, regardless of their shape, type, width and where they were bought in Italy. All, apart from one, open on average at circa 1200 daN (kg)."

Earlier, the article further defines daN:
" I began collecting them after a carabiner which I'd removed from a belay "opened" at 920 daN (a metric unit equivalent to circa 1 kg). "

At 1kg = ~2.2 lbs, these supposed death-trap biners are failing at ~2600 lbs. Obviously totally inadequate for lowering, rapping, or top roping.

Please think before posting breathtaking sensationalism.


bearbreeder


Dec 21, 2012, 1:33 PM
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Re: [marc801] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
They weren't quicklinks that were tested - they were hardware store carabiners. Your post title and the sentence fragment above are wildly inaccurate.

In the article referenced, it states:
"Every "hardware" carabiner sucks, to say the least, whether they are new, old, regardless of their shape, type, width and where they were bought in Italy. All, apart from one, open on average at circa 1200 daN (kg)."

Earlier, the article further defines daN:
" I began collecting them after a carabiner which I'd removed from a belay "opened" at 920 daN (a metric unit equivalent to circa 1 kg). "

At 1kg = ~2.2 lbs, these supposed death-trap biners are failing at ~2600 lbs. Obviously totally inadequate for lowering, rapping, or top roping.

Please think before posting breathtaking sensationalism.

read more carefully ;)

With "fixed" gear, the weakest part is always the quickdraw, then the "hardware" maillon rapide and then the carabiner (if it is "CE").
Non "CE" maillon rapides generally hold less that a really worn "CE" carabiner.
CE" maillon rapides, even if worn down to about half their width, break under loads similar to new maillon rapides.


as to the usage ... i see plenty of these things on bolts or routes out here ... likely people leaving them

and i see plenty of people who should know better clip them for belay anchors and on lead ...

people do funny things ..

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Dec 21, 2012, 1:36 PM)


redlude97


Dec 21, 2012, 2:20 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
marc801 wrote:
They weren't quicklinks that were tested - they were hardware store carabiners. Your post title and the sentence fragment above are wildly inaccurate.

In the article referenced, it states:
"Every "hardware" carabiner sucks, to say the least, whether they are new, old, regardless of their shape, type, width and where they were bought in Italy. All, apart from one, open on average at circa 1200 daN (kg)."

Earlier, the article further defines daN:
" I began collecting them after a carabiner which I'd removed from a belay "opened" at 920 daN (a metric unit equivalent to circa 1 kg). "

At 1kg = ~2.2 lbs, these supposed death-trap biners are failing at ~2600 lbs. Obviously totally inadequate for lowering, rapping, or top roping.

Please think before posting breathtaking sensationalism.

read more carefully ;)

With "fixed" gear, the weakest part is always the quickdraw, then the "hardware" maillon rapide and then the carabiner (if it is "CE").
Non "CE" maillon rapides generally hold less that a really worn "CE" carabiner.
CE" maillon rapides, even if worn down to about half their width, break under loads similar to new maillon rapides.

So a non CE quicklink holds a bit less than a worn CE carabiner, which itself holds nearly the same as a new carabiner(as they've stated). So a hardware store quicklink is nearly full strength....sounds good enough to me....


bearbreeder


Dec 21, 2012, 2:33 PM
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Re: [redlude97] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
So a non CE quicklink holds a bit less than a worn CE carabiner, which itself holds nearly the same as a new carabiner(as they've stated). So a hardware store quicklink is nearly full strength....sounds good enough to me.... .

where did you get "a bit less" from?

they said "Non "CE" maillon rapides generally hold less that a really worn "CE" carabiner."

which aint the same thing Wink



heres a quicklink they tested ... i would hope even worn certified biners dont fail at < 8 kN in the proper orientation Tongue


the most important part

And finally, if in doubt, every piece of fixed gear is weaker than your worst quickdraw.

Cool


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Dec 21, 2012, 2:34 PM)


troutboy


Dec 22, 2012, 5:06 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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That circled number is 0.8 Kn, not 8.


bearbreeder


Dec 22, 2012, 5:10 AM
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troutboy wrote:
That circled number is 0.8 Kn, not 8.

its 797 DaN ... which means 10s of newtons ... or 7970 newtons .. or a tad less than 8 KN

which brings up the point that this is likely the MAJOR AXIS load ...

a quick check of petzl oval links show a minor axis load of < 50% of the major ...

so in otherwords a crossloaded hardware quicklink may fail at much less than < 8 KN

food for thought ...

Wink


wivanoff


Dec 22, 2012, 5:45 AM
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Re: [marc801] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
They weren't quicklinks that were tested - they were hardware store carabiners. Your post title and the sentence fragment above are wildly inaccurate.

I see two quicklinks in the photo labeled "The gear that was tested". And in the PDF, item 5 is listed as "Maglia rapida "fisso"DMM"" and item 7 is listed as "Maglia Rapida".

The mode of failure is different in those two quicklinks. In one, the break is at the threaded portion. In the other, the break is at the bend on the major axis.

I would have liked to see more information about the size of those quicklinks. That said, I'm still happy to rappel off 3/8" or even 5/16" quicklinks. YMMV

EDIT: I found a couple of links to previous discussions.

http://www.supertopo.com/...php?topic_id=1787466

http://www.mountainproject.com/...nk-safe/107123764__1

marc801 wrote:
Please think before posting breathtaking sensationalism.

Please read better before posting snarky responses.


(This post was edited by wivanoff on Dec 22, 2012, 6:02 AM)


gunkiemike


Dec 22, 2012, 7:22 AM
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Re: [wivanoff] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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Hypothetically... if I went to Home Depot and bought, say, 10 non-stainless 5/16" quicklinks (these being what I normally leave at backcountry raps), how many of them do you think would fail at less than 1000 pounds?

I'd say none of them.

How about 2000 pounds? The working load limit is given as 1760 lb, and there's some margin (3:1? Maybe 5:1) built in, right? So I'd guess they'd all be good.

I'd guess they'd all be good to 3000 lbs.

So tell me why the report in the OP should alarm me. Because it's "real data"? Compared to my conjecture? Is it because you (note - I'm not responding to anyone specifically) think there's no quality control if it's not "climbing rated"? And that therefore there may be hidden defects that would cause 1 in 100, or maybe 1 in 1000 to explode under body weight? Shall we chip in and buy 1000 and have them tested? Whoever's wrong gets to reimburse the costs.


(This post was edited by gunkiemike on Dec 22, 2012, 10:09 AM)


bearbreeder


Dec 22, 2012, 8:19 AM
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Re: [gunkiemike] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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well first of all those darn italians just took what they found at the crag and tested em ... i doubt they wre cherry picking the sketchiest ones they could find ... the 2 maillons in the photo on the site, i cant tell which one is the "good" one and which is the "bad" one ... either one looks like something anyone could clip at any crag ...

second of all ... when people leave maillons at crags, especilally on sport routes ... other people WILL clip em ... sometimes because yr trying to clip the crux bolt and are pumped out of yr mind, you cant fiddle with a stuck maillon and it gets in the way of the draw ... sometimes because newbies dont know any better ..

thirdly ... on a sport route people WILL take lead falls on these maillons ... note how the hardware store maillon tested to 8kn, crossload this which aint hard with it shifting with rope drag (if you climb enough "harder" sport you WILL see the maillons on permadraws get xloaded) ... and suddenly you have a 4 KN connection ... if it fails it can mean a grounder or ledge fall ...

fourthly ... some people on multi clip em for belays ... now maybe they should be darwin candidates, but ive seen replies that say "clip the chains or the bolts, it doesnt matter" ... of course those hardware maillons could be part of the anchor "chain" ... maybe theyll hold a fall off the belay, maybe they wont

fifthly ... if you climb enough around here you will see anchors where the lowering/rapping point is a single maillon rapide attached to 2 chains ... basically its loaded funky, possibly in a triaxial direction ... suddenly that 8 kn becomes how strong? ... now you may not think itll matter for rapping or lowering ... do keep in mind that youll see newbies TRing through a single quicklink ... or clipping them on multi for lead ...


sixthly ... have you tested the effect of the elements on those hardware maillons .... note that of all the gear they tested even brand new STEEL ones tested lower than even the most worn out aluminum biner they found .. do you know how resistant these maillons are to the elements ... perhaps that 8KN maillon was much stronger a few years ago ...

now to summarize, you may be perfectly fine rapping and leaving off hardware maillons on bolts that other people lead off ... or using them for anchors that other people will clip ... you may not care since its not your problem

but if you do, then consider how other people will see and use the equipment ...

i find it odd personally that people will tell others to use hardware maillons just fine ... but would ANY RCer tell someone here its OK to use this rope for TRing? ... even though its "under" the limit of the forces involved if the ratings and quality control can be trusted ...

http://www.homedepot.com/...d=10051#.UNXajhxQopI

Wink


njrox


Dec 22, 2012, 8:34 AM
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I've seen plenty of "Home Depot" quicklinks on webbing tree-raps. The weakest I've seen (use, or carry) are rated to 2200 pounds and are always doubled. I trust these more than those cheap aluminum rings.


marc801


Dec 22, 2012, 11:00 AM
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njrox wrote:
I've seen plenty of "Home Depot" quicklinks on webbing tree-raps. The weakest I've seen (use, or carry) are rated to 2200 pounds and are always doubled. I trust these more than those cheap aluminum rings.
Those cheap, rolled aluminum rap rings were never intended to be permanent anchors. They are primarily a cheap alternative to a biner for one-time use (since it will be left at the anchor) to reduce friction on a rappel pull-down. Anyone constructing perma-anchors from those instead of the welded steel climbing variety rings should be flogged.


Kinobi


Jan 4, 2013, 1:56 AM
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Re: [marc801] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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Ciao,
I am Emanuele Pellizzari.
The writer of that article and I performed all tests.
We talk about "quick links" AND hardware carabiners.

QL are used as perma(Fixed) draws on the hangers AND in many cares on belays as lower off.
The carabiners were collected from lower offs (including where you top-rope).
Full article:
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=40417

Some photos (needs registration):
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=177&mforum=kinobi

Best,
E


Kinobi


Jan 4, 2013, 2:02 AM
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Re: [wivanoff] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
marc801 wrote:
They weren't quicklinks that were tested - they were hardware store carabiners. Your post title and the sentence fragment above are wildly inaccurate.

I see two quicklinks in the photo labeled "The gear that was tested". And in the PDF, item 5 is listed as "Maglia rapida "fisso"DMM"" and item 7 is listed as "Maglia Rapida".

The mode of failure is different in those two quicklinks. In one, the break is at the threaded portion. In the other, the break is at the bend on the major axis.

I would have liked to see more information about the size of those quicklinks.

The "permadraws" first exploded at the webbing, or at the Quicklinks. The total "streght" of the DMM permadrwas os like listed.
The QL were 8 mm steel. CE (China Export) logo.
These draws were collected at my home crag.
http://www.forum.planetmountain.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=48245&highlight=solagna
E


Kinobi


Jan 4, 2013, 2:04 AM
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Re: [redlude97] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
So a non CE quicklink holds a bit less than a worn CE carabiner, which itself holds nearly the same as a new carabiner(as they've stated). So a hardware store quicklink is nearly full strength....sounds good enough to me....

False.
A worn CE carabiner holds about like a new one.
An "unbranded" Quicklink holds in average 13 kN.
Very erratic inconsistent results.
With some exceptions at 31 kN and some at 7,5 kN.
E


Kinobi


Jan 4, 2013, 2:10 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
well first of all those darn italians just took what they found at the crag and tested em ... i doubt they wre cherry picking the sketchiest ones they could find ... the 2 maillons in the photo on the site, i cant tell which one is the "good" one and which is the "bad" one ... either one looks like something anyone could clip at any crag ...

Sorry.
First, all gear placed to replace what I "steal", was paid by my pocket. I was not piad nor refounded in any form and by any mean for my work.
Then, you did not read carefully the article?
"Every "hardware" carabiner sucks, to say the least, whether they are new, old, regardless of their shape, type, width and where they were bought in Italy. All, apart from one, open on average at circa 1200 daN (kg)"

Some units were brand new. I have a 128 Mbyte folder of photos in case you need them.
Next time I am in the USA, I buy one carabiner in a harware store, and as new I test it.
E


knudenoggin


Jan 6, 2013, 9:17 PM
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Re: [Kinobi] hardware store quicklinks [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
wivanoff wrote:
marc801 wrote:
... CE (China Export) logo.

Wow, I think that there should be some effort by those
minding the European Union's "CE" certification process
to get an international ruling against the bogus "CE" of
"China Export" --those logos are way too similar!
(And I wonder why, hmmmmmm?)-:


*kN*


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