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csproul


Jan 4, 2013, 5:22 PM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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So I can envision stopping a fall without a device using a hip belay. Can you better explain how you gain enough friction to stop a leader fall should a cinch or any other belay device fail? So the rope is running through the Cinch and it doesn't lock and you can provide enough friction with the rope running out the (non-functional) belay device and then behind your thigh? Can you show us a picture of how this works? I admit that I'm extremely skeptical, but as you say...I've never tried it, but I'd love to see it done.


USnavy


Jan 4, 2013, 11:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.

billcoe_ wrote:
repost from couple years back:

Love the Cinch for belaying. However, like all mechanical things, they wear. My friend Stan Miller, who probably uses his Cinch as much or more than anyone on this board, has shared his method of replacing the Dowel Pin that is the main wear point. Allowing the Dowel pin to get too low will allow faster wear on the body. As Stan is not just a better climber, but much smarter than me, his replacement went much better. So I'll share Stans routine on this.




I figured I'd just grab our little press at work and use the new dowel pin to replace the old without doing anything to the existing jig. This is called laziness. My son had jigged up some PDFE for a job, which I took about 3 seconds to blow out. Dohh. Furthermore, as it wasn't straight, I actually blew a few thousands of the edge of the Cinch where the rope will be

Tore the jig out and hammered the wood in half with a hammer and a screwdriver, then used the PDFE to support the Cinch.
Out with the old and in with the new.


Cheapo press.
5/16 x 3/4 Dowel pin
Wear reading glasses, not safety glasses so you can see what you are doing.

I have extra dowel pins if you want to try this yourself, ask me for one if you see me out and about. You can easily get a 5/16" x 3/4" long dowel pin at any hardware store as well.

Back on track. What I haven't been able to correlate is what kind of grip/strength reduction is achieved in the Cinch at what level of wear. Certainly there is some, in fact, mine would not grip well rappelling a single rope if it was a thinner one (and had a slick dry coating applied too). So I could see a worn dowel pin and a brand new thin dry coated rope being a bad combo to hold a whipper. You would most certainly get the rope running through the device and zipping through your hands, and if you were not wearing gloves, it would be very painful, I don't care what your skill level of belaying was.

Give us the full Paul Harvey and let us know: "the rest of the story, Good day".
You could spend all day doing that. Or you could just send it to Trango and get a new one. The second and third generation pins are made out of forged steel as opposed to rolled steel in the first gen models.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 4, 2013, 11:54 PM)


healyje


Jan 5, 2013, 12:09 AM
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Re: [csproul] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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My version of hip belay is done with the rope from the leader going through a single non-locking biner on the harness and then the rope travels back around my hips. The rope path rides below the top point of your hip bones by about an inch and a half. In the case of a fall, your brake hand basically plunges to your upper inner thigh (butt of palm first, palm turned out). With that setup, holding a lead fall is plenty solid due to the friction of both hips.

In the scenario we're discussing the bends through the autoblocking device substitutes for some, but not all, of one hip's worth of friction. But in this case you don't brake around your hip because it's not tight enough a radious. Instead, you brake across the top of your upper thigh just below your butt cheek. You pick up about 160-170 degrees of wrap over the tighter radius around your thigh.

In a fall, rather than plunging your hand below your crotch in front as you do with a hip belay, you do close to the same, only behind you, while at the same time rotating your body ninety degrees or so towards the side of your brake hand and leaning back and bracing hard against the foot now pointing at the leader.

All of those features of the belay have to happen at the same time - the braking behind the thigh, the turn to the brake hand side, and the lean back and bracing against the now front foot. Also, if, how, and where you flake the rope can make it harder or easier to execute it as well; I tend to flake the rope out well to my brake hand side and slightly behind me.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 5, 2013, 12:15 AM)


jt512


Jan 5, 2013, 10:25 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


That is a case of clear-cut misuse, the mechanism of failure is known. What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate. You can't prevent a failure if you can't determine why it occurred. Such failures are then essentially random occurrences, and getting belayed with a Cinch is like buying a lottery ticket, only you don't want your number to come to up.

Jay


csproul


Jan 5, 2013, 11:48 AM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
My version of hip belay is done with the rope from the leader going through a single non-locking biner on the harness and then the rope travels back around my hips. The rope path rides below the top point of your hip bones by about an inch and a half. In the case of a fall, your brake hand basically plunges to your upper inner thigh (butt of palm first, palm turned out). With that setup, holding a lead fall is plenty solid due to the friction of both hips.

In the scenario we're discussing the bends through the autoblocking device substitutes for some, but not all, of one hip's worth of friction. But in this case you don't brake around your hip because it's not tight enough a radious. Instead, you brake across the top of your upper thigh just below your butt cheek. You pick up about 160-170 degrees of wrap over the tighter radius around your thigh.

In a fall, rather than plunging your hand below your crotch in front as you do with a hip belay, you do close to the same, only behind you, while at the same time rotating your body ninety degrees or so towards the side of your brake hand and leaning back and bracing hard against the foot now pointing at the leader.

All of those features of the belay have to happen at the same time - the braking behind the thigh, the turn to the brake hand side, and the lean back and bracing against the now front foot. Also, if, how, and where you flake the rope can make it harder or easier to execute it as well; I tend to flake the rope out well to my brake hand side and slightly behind me.
In the case of the non-functioning Cinch, there is vitally no "bends through the device" and there would be very little friction provided by the device, so you'd be stopping the fall with just one hip/thigh. Maybe you can do it, I wouldn't know. I'd love to see it happen.


healyje


Jan 5, 2013, 1:35 PM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.


jt512


Jan 5, 2013, 1:39 PM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
[No, actually, USNavy wrote that.]

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.

The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.

Jay


bearbreeder


Jan 5, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.

20 feet even with a tight belay on a full 70m ...

assuming 10% stretch ...

when climbing full length pitches, dont fall in the first 20 feet when following ...

if this is a problem, set up an intermediate belay to minimize the stretch

as to the cinch ... i wasnt aware till recently that trango recommends you set it up upside down ... something to look for when doing partner checks in the gym ...

but then i use a grigri, smart or tuber anyways Wink

http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=lkOVssfihn0


USnavy


Jan 6, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate.
What reported cases? Is it possible these reported cases of an unknown failure mode are actually just instances of the belayer failing to properly grip the brake strand and prevent inadvertent jaming of the cam open by means of a second hand or the rock pressing on the cam? If you look at the Cinch it is pretty easy to understand how the device functions, you dont need to be an engineer to understand it. The basic design is fairly simple and foolproof. I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move. The device functions the same way as the GriGri. Drag on the brake strand initiates the cam, which pinches the rope. Unless there is something restricting the movement of the cam, it is not physically possible for the cam to fail to close if there is drag on the brake strand. So I dont see how the device could fail to lock if used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. I can, however, see how it could fail to lock if the user fails to provide drag on the brake strand.


JimTitt


Jan 6, 2013, 1:44 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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There is a case reported on page 2 of this thread which is mirrored by a number of other reports. That rope burns on the brake hand are mentioned indicates the belayer WAS gripping the brake strand. The DAV reported 6 cases of failure to hold a fall with the Cinch in 2009 with rope burns.


healyje


Jan 6, 2013, 2:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.
Sorry about that, was on my iPhone at the time which is usually less than ideal for forum posting.


lonequail


Jan 6, 2013, 5:23 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
What reported cases? .... I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move.

Read my previous post on this thread, especially the three bullet items. Then go play with a Cinch and a rope, and see what you think.


phillygoat


Jan 6, 2013, 1:39 PM
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I've been using the Cinch almost exclusively for 5 years and haven't had any problems besides the aforementioned wear. That said, in that time I've had a friend "deck with tension" at the gym when a reportedly correctly-threaded Cinch failed to engage the rope. This resulted in burns to the belayer's brake hand.

Another friend caught an unexpected fall with a 1st generation Cinch only after the leader fell much further than expected. This belayer suffered rope burns to his guide hand and was known to hold the Cinch pointed down.

While it's impossible to know exactly what happened during these falls, it is worrisome that both belayers were very experienced climbers with familiarity of the Cinch.

I'm of the opinion that the guide hand contributes to the efficacy of the Cinch more than is emphasized. I believe pulling the hands in opposition (quickly!) is what ensures the device to engage. In the reported cases of slippage, I believe the brake hand is trying to hold the rope, but for some reason the device is not pivoting (ie: held with forefinger and thumb too tightly?) Maybe something akin to how seatbelts require swift movement to lock?

The bottom line is that I agree with Jay- the not knowing is unsettling. I'd like to think it's simply user error, as I find the Cinch to easily be the best rope-feeding belay device I've used. Even Grigri 2s with new ropes don't feed as well. Oh, FWIW, I'm mostly a sport climber and have caught hundreds of falls with the Cinch over the years.


redlude97


Jan 6, 2013, 8:37 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate.
What reported cases? Is it possible these reported cases of an unknown failure mode are actually just instances of the belayer failing to properly grip the brake strand and prevent inadvertent jaming of the cam open by means of a second hand or the rock pressing on the cam? If you look at the Cinch it is pretty easy to understand how the device functions, you dont need to be an engineer to understand it. The basic design is fairly simple and foolproof. I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move. The device functions the same way as the GriGri. Drag on the brake strand initiates the cam, which pinches the rope. Unless there is something restricting the movement of the cam, it is not physically possible for the cam to fail to close if there is drag on the brake strand. So I dont see how the device could fail to lock if used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. I can, however, see how it could fail to lock if the user fails to provide drag on the brake strand.
I've used a cinch for over 4 years without a problem, until i had one. The cam was not jammed in any way and the rope burns on my hands clearly indicate I was holding the brake strand. I estimate I've caught 1000 falls on a cinch at least. I still do not know why it didn't lock in this case. I've never had a problem with an atc(what I use for multipitch) or a grigri 2(what I use for cragging now). I used to really love the cinch and if you look back at old threads I've always advocated its use before this incident last summer. No response from Trango so I stopped using it. I used to think the same way you did. Until it happens and it blows your mind, then you lose all trust in device.


bearbreeder


Jan 6, 2013, 8:41 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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heres a question ... who here refuses to be belayed on a cinch, no matter how experienced the belayer ...

i see people no longer using em ... do people you know still use em or do you meet people with em, and let them know you refuse to be belayed by a cinch?


JimTitt


Jan 7, 2013, 12:09 AM
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Me for one. They were never very popular in the area I climb in anyway since most owned a Grigri. I havenīt seen one in use for a few years now and the only guy I knew personally who used one dropped his partner so changed.
The reports of people being dropped, the wear issue, that they bend and become useless and the disagreement over safety of the operating instructions between the DAV and Trango (which we now see is resolved in favour of the DAV as the new instructions show it should be clipped into the harness facing the other way as they recommended) made them an unatractive alternative to other more reliable devices.


healyje


Jan 7, 2013, 1:45 AM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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Cinch issues...


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 7, 2013, 1:45 AM)


JAB


Jan 10, 2013, 6:46 AM
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I'm a bit late for this thread, but let me add my experiences. I've used the Cinch about 4 years. During that time, I have never myself had any issues, but my belayer once dropped my quite the way, almost decking me. I'm pretty sure what happened.

I was projecting a route and was resting, with my waist at the bolt. I decided to a big reach for a hold I though I barely could reach, just to see how it felt. I expected the belayer to keep me tight, but as I stretched he assumed I was continuing my climb and gave out some slack . At the same time I leaned back to continue resting, and next thing I knew I was 15 feet down.

I think it is pretty obvious that this is the big risk with the Cinch. If you take a mild fall at the same time the belayer is paying out slack, a lot of rope will run through the device before it locks up. The way to avoid this is to grab the rope with your three free fingers so that you create the drag required for it to lock up more quickly. This can be hard if your belayer is inexperienced (the case in my fall) or inattentive.

While I am totally of the opinion that this is an avoidable belayer error, the Cinch surely leaves much less room for sloppiness than for example the Grigri. And as everyone (except Healyje) knows, everyone will be sloppy at one point or two. Even John Long was.

I have adjusted my belaying style so that I keep the Cinch locked up as much as possible. I do this by pulling up on the guide hand, which locks the device. My braking hand remains solely on the braking side of the rope - I do not hold the device at all. Only when slack is needed in the next second, do I move my brake hand onto the device. I then super quickly (and this is easy with the Cinch) pay out an arm (being attentive that I have 3 fingers firmly on the braking side of the rope), and immediately after return both my hands to the locking position.

Like many others, my Cinch is getting worn, so I will probably do like everybody else and get a grigri 2.


(This post was edited by JAB on Jan 10, 2013, 6:47 AM)


Gmburns2000


Jan 10, 2013, 8:06 AM
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.
Sorry about that, was on my iPhone at the time which is usually less than ideal for forum posting.

hmmmm...Angelic



(seriously though, I've never liked the cinch, but for other reasons. basically I just never got used to it and decided it wasn't worth spending money on another device just because. this thread has been eye-opening)

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