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ground fall at Frog Buttress
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bearbreeder


Jan 8, 2013, 1:07 AM
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ground fall at Frog Buttress
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i didnt see this posted before ... or maybe i just need new glasses Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI


billl7


Jan 8, 2013, 5:42 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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Ouch!

Things that concerned me about the belay:

* seemed too inattentive - often looking away from the leader;
* not helping keep the rope out of the leaders feet and from between the leaders legs;
* not helping to keep the rope from moving the first piece.

Also, it looked as though the leader actually fell on the rope as he came down due to belayer's poor position. May have actually reduced the outward pull on the first piece (although it had already been wiggled some).

I'm not saying gear placement was mistake free. I just think the belayer could have helped the leader to focus more on the lead.

Thanks for posting! I look forward to comments from others.

Bill L


camhead


Jan 8, 2013, 7:23 AM
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Re: [billl7] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
Ouch!

Things that concerned me about the belay:

* seemed too inattentive - often looking away from the leader;
* not helping keep the rope out of the leaders feet and from between the leaders legs;
* not helping to keep the rope from moving the first piece.

Also, it looked as though the leader actually fell on the rope as he came down due to belayer's poor position. May have actually reduced the outward pull on the first piece (although it had already been wiggled some).

I'm not saying gear placement was mistake free. I just think the belayer could have helped the leader to focus more on the lead.

Thanks for posting! I look forward to comments from others.

Bill L

Uhhh... the only thing that belayer could have done to make the situation better would have been to drop the rope and give the climber a spot. The groundfall had nothing to do with the belay.


billl7


Jan 8, 2013, 8:21 AM
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Re: [camhead] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Uhhh... the only thing that belayer could have done to make the situation better would have been to drop the rope and give the climber a spot. The groundfall had nothing to do with the belay.
There was bad gear there for sure.


wonderwoman


Jan 8, 2013, 11:38 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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moved from general to A&I by ww.


marc801


Jan 8, 2013, 11:40 AM
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Re: [billl7] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
camhead wrote:
Uhhh... the only thing that belayer could have done to make the situation better would have been to drop the rope and give the climber a spot. The groundfall had nothing to do with the belay.
There was bad gear there for sure.
But again, the belay had nothing to do with the ground fall. The key piece that would have kept him off the ground pulled.


billl7


Jan 8, 2013, 11:52 AM
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Re: [marc801] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
billl7 wrote:
camhead wrote:
Uhhh... the only thing that belayer could have done to make the situation better would have been to drop the rope and give the climber a spot. The groundfall had nothing to do with the belay.
There was bad gear there for sure.
But again, the belay had nothing to do with the ground fall. The key piece that would have kept him off the ground pulled.
Agreed. Never said otherwise.

Still, it is a mistake to infer it was a good belay.


healyje


Jan 8, 2013, 12:39 PM
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Re: [marc801] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
The key piece that would have kept him off the ground pulled.

If he didn't have that low, difficult section wired then he needed to double up the piece that came out because where he came off was a high enough fall to have had significant consequences. Pretty much any time you are making a placement where there is groundfall potential and anything other than completely bomb pro, you should double up.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 8, 2013, 12:40 PM)


acorneau


Jan 8, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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If you watch carefully you can see the bottom piece "zipper" as the rope goes taught and then the top two pieces pull completely, ending up with no pro at all.

Belaying wasn't great but the gear didn't hold at all.

Hope the guy is ok.


healyje


Jan 8, 2013, 2:16 PM
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Re: [acorneau] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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Ah, didn't catch that, definitely can't afford to have the first piece fail.


Partner cracklover


Jan 8, 2013, 3:02 PM
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Re: [healyje] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
marc801 wrote:
The key piece that would have kept him off the ground pulled.

If he didn't have that low, difficult section wired then he needed to double up the piece that came out because where he came off was a high enough fall to have had significant consequences. Pretty much any time you are making a placement where there is groundfall potential and anything other than completely bomb pro, you should double up.

He did. Three pieces total, and at the moment he comes off, he has piece number two just below his feet, and piece number three just above. Both pieces were, it appears, quite poor.

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Jan 8, 2013, 3:04 PM)


bearbreeder


Jan 8, 2013, 3:14 PM
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Re: [acorneau] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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i watched it a few times in slo mo ... and i believe the top piece went first ...

the comments indicated they were cams and theres no effing way 3 good cams should zipper out of a crack ... it was also indicated it was a "slick" crack

i cant speak to the actual gear placement ... but the spacing of the gear seems reasonable


healyje


Jan 8, 2013, 3:40 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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Happens...




moose_droppings


Jan 8, 2013, 4:04 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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I remember watching that a couple years back when it first came out.

It did look like his top piece popped first, and the bottom and middle piece looks like they'd been wiggled and pulled up by sloppy footwork. Hard to tell for sure which popped next between the first and second placement.

Pretty self evident that they're not good placements considering the result.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jan 8, 2013, 4:04 PM)


dan2see


Jan 8, 2013, 5:39 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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When the video is over, YouTube gives you more selections. It leads to this one:

Vertical Limit Guide to Climbing An instructional video.

I had to hold my breath Pirate for some of the scenes.


mojomonkey


Jan 8, 2013, 7:34 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
i watched it a few times in slo mo

Is there a way to do that on youtube? I used this: slo mo link


healyje


Jan 8, 2013, 10:48 PM
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Re: [acorneau] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
If you watch carefully you can see the bottom piece "zipper" as the rope goes taught and then the top two pieces pull completely, ending up with no pro at all.

Belaying wasn't great but the gear didn't hold at all.

Hope the guy is ok.

After looking at it on that great slomo link and at full screen it looks to me like all three pieces pulled top to bottom and that all three pieces were poor. Beyond that it doesn't appear he has a lot of depth as a trad climber yet as his climbing is quite tentative where an experienced trad climber would have laid in the pro and moved right through those moves to the better stance above.

So, from what we can see, I would think he needs quite a bit more time seconding solid leaders before jumping on things like that.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 8, 2013, 10:51 PM)


rightarmbad


Jan 9, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Re: [healyje] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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I know of three ground falls on that route.
Never pulled a piece myself and have fallen from pretty much the same place as Clint.
When ever I see somebody about to attempt it, I always warn them to double up down low as the inside of the crack has a slippery hard black texture in some places.

Clint has since passed away in another incident.
Probably why nobody else from this neck of the woods has posted anything.

There was discussion on Qurank.com for anybody interested in further info.


My own personal opinion was that Clints progression through the climbing grades due to his natural strength, far outstripped
his climbing knowledge and he often underestimated or didn't recognise the danger involved.

I was once asked why I didn't go climbing with him when I was without a partner at Frog and I replied that he would kill himself one day and didn't want to be around to see it.

It was no surprise when I heard of his later accident.

No doubt the locals will scorn me for saying so.


rightarmbad


Jan 9, 2013, 1:07 AM
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gM1J14t2k&feature=relmfu



Now, how anybody can rip a cam at Girraween is beyond me.
Bomber rock, fantastic friction.

That route can also be climbed much better face on with good nut protection.

Can't seem to make it clicky from my iPad. Hmm.


(This post was edited by rightarmbad on Jan 9, 2013, 1:13 AM)


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 2:33 AM
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Re: [rightarmbad] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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Thanks for the Qurank.com pointer - sorry to hear Clinton ended up passing. From reading his posts it sounds like he was quite the character.

Didn't know there was climbing in those parts. Been up north of there a way diving, next time I'll have to check it out.


granite_grrl


Jan 9, 2013, 7:09 AM
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Re: [rightarmbad] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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rightarmbad wrote:
I know of three ground falls on that route.
Never pulled a piece myself and have fallen from pretty much the same place as Clint.
When ever I see somebody about to attempt it, I always warn them to double up down low as the inside of the crack has a slippery hard black texture in some places.

Clint has since passed away in another incident.
Probably why nobody else from this neck of the woods has posted anything.

There was discussion on Qurank.com for anybody interested in further info.


My own personal opinion was that Clints progression through the climbing grades due to his natural strength, far outstripped
his climbing knowledge and he often underestimated or didn't recognise the danger involved.

I was once asked why I didn't go climbing with him when I was without a partner at Frog and I replied that he would kill himself one day and didn't want to be around to see it.

It was no surprise when I heard of his later accident.

No doubt the locals will scorn me for saying so.

I am sad that Clint has passed, my condolences.

I am curious about the rock quality in the area though and how much that contributed to the gear pulling. I only ask because the rock appears that it could be quite slick and know of cams ripping from seemingly good placements in parallel sided cracks in other smooth rock (I'm thinking of a case on local limestone where 3 cams ripped and the climber hit the ground, he was okay thankfully).


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 8:00 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
... and know of cams ripping from seemingly good placements in parallel sided cracks in other smooth rock.

Which is all the more reason why you want to double up on low cruxs which Clint himself discussed after the incident, though was seemly dismissive of the idea in practice.


granite_grrl


Jan 9, 2013, 8:31 AM
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healyje wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
... and know of cams ripping from seemingly good placements in parallel sided cracks in other smooth rock.

Which is all the more reason why you want to double up on low cruxs which Clint himself discussed after the incident, though was seemly dismissive of the idea in practice.

If you manage to rip 3 cams what makes you think a 4th will stay in place?

I don't think the amount of gear placed is really the issue here (the 2rd and 3rd cams were placed rather closely in the video) it's how you place the gear. Around here I wouldn't trust a cam unless it was placed in a pod of some sort.

But all of that is moot depending on the rock and avalible placement options. Maybe the rock has good friction and doesn't need to be placed in a pod. Or maybe the crack had no constrictions regardless. Neither you or I can tell these things just from watching the video.


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 8:38 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] ground fall at Frog Buttress [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
If you manage to rip 3 cams what makes you think a 4th will stay in place?

The fact I believe his were poorly placed and the fact I've had doubled up placements save my ass in the past.

granite_grrl wrote:
I don't think the amount of gear placed is really the issue here (the 2rd and 3rd cams were placed rather closely in the video) it's how you place the gear. Around here I wouldn't trust a cam unless it was placed in a pod of some sort.

You're right, it's principally about how you place the gear, but doubling up of well-placed gear is a highly prudent option for low cruxs. I'm a sandstone guy and have climbed in many, many different kinds of sandstone, including the Blue Mountains to the south of the scene of that accident. Nothing about what I saw in the video gives me the slightest concern about my ability to protect that climb adequately.

granite_grrl wrote:
Neither you or I can tell these things just from watching the video.

I would disagree.


camhead


Jan 9, 2013, 9:48 AM
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The rock in the video is volcanic; columnar ryolite, I believe. We can armchair critique this all we want, but the lesson that most people should take from this is that parallel splitter cracks in very hard rock can have worse cam placements than in similar cracks of sandstone or granite. The hardness and smoothness of the rock basically makes it difficult for cams to grip into it. As granitegrl said, limestone can be really bad for this, too, but limestone also tends to have more bottlenecks and constrictions in it, which of course will make both cam and nut placements in slick rock much better.

I've not climbed at Frog Buttress, but there are a couple places in the US that are also smooth, columnar igneous rock (Frenchman's Coulee and Paradise Forks); I recall stories from both areas about apparently perfect cam placements in parallel cracks simply pulling out.

Bottom line: in rock like this, do not expect to rely on the same cam placements that you would get in an identical Yosemite or Indian Creek splitter. Flares and parallel cracks should be suspect; look for bottlenecks, stopper placements, etc.

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