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nick97
Jan 1, 2013, 7:07 PM
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Recently Ive had the idea of doing pullups daily. Is that OK to do? I mean will it screw up my strength to weight ratio? Right now I can do about 25 pullups in my max set. I was thinking about doing 100 in the morning and 100 at night. Should i maybe only do this routing 2 or 3 times a week instead of everyday? Thanks
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Syd
Jan 1, 2013, 8:57 PM
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I don't think they help much at all compared to improving finger strength with a hangboard.
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crackmeup
Jan 1, 2013, 9:16 PM
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nick97 wrote: Recently Ive had the idea of doing pullups daily. Is that OK to do?
What are you trying to accomplish? What aspect of your climbing are you looking to improve?
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vinnie83
Jan 1, 2013, 9:23 PM
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nick97 wrote: Recently Ive had the idea of doing pullups daily. Is that OK to do? I mean will it screw up my strength to weight ratio? Right now I can do about 25 pullups in my max set. I was thinking about doing 100 in the morning and 100 at night. Should i maybe only do this routing 2 or 3 times a week instead of everyday? Thanks
Is it OK to do? Maybe. Will doing it every day as opposed to every other day make you better at pulllups? Not sure, but I'd say you might be bordering on overtraining. Will it make you climb harder? No.
People typically fail on routes because they lack technique, forearm strength, or forearm endurance. I know girls who climb harder than the grades listed on your profile that can't do 10 pullups. If you want to get better focus on the weak link that is holding you back. Not the thing you like to do because you're good at it.
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camrock
Jan 1, 2013, 11:22 PM
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In reply to: If you want to get better focus on the weak link that is holding you back. Not the thing you like to do because you're good at it.
Genius.
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brooklynclimber
Jan 1, 2013, 11:32 PM
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vinnie83 wrote: Is it OK to do? Maybe. Will doing it every day as opposed to every other day make you better at pulllups? Not sure, but I'd say you might be bordering on overtraining. Will it make you climb harder? No.
Quote:
Last time I checked, I could do 24 pull-ups on a bar. A tiny amount for a climber at my grade. Fortunately, being super strong at one strength measure is not so important as being equally strong at holding onto any type of hold. Last time I checked, I could do 24 pull-ups on a bar, on crimps, on slopers and on openhanded pockets. Those who are super strong in one area but weak on another might not be as good at climbing as they could/should. Those who aren’t so strong at any type of hold or exercise, but not weak on any either are much more likely to climb at a surprisingly high level given they are not exceptionally strong at anything.
If there is a type of move/hold/angle you hate, attack it until you love it.
/end quote
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jjgoodboy
Jan 2, 2013, 12:05 AM
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Hey nick97, I was surprised at the answeres to your post. All the information mentioned was true but not particulary specific to your question. I will try.
NO.
The reason in basic terms it will not help is because strength training wears on your body. I won't go into the technicalities but the workout actually makes you weaker temporarily. Your body then goes into a period of rebuilding. That takes time. From 24 hours to a week depending on the type of workout and intensity. At the end of this recovery phase you are a little bit stronger. If you workout again before this rebuilding process is complete you can actually make yourself weaker. REST AT LEAST ONE DAY BETWEEN WORKOUTS. REST MAKES YOU STRONGER.
Hope that helps,
jjgoodboy
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nick97
Jan 2, 2013, 3:00 AM
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thanks, ill try to rest 1-2 days in between. and to whoever asked what aspect of climbing im trying to improve. My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that
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potreroed
Jan 2, 2013, 3:18 AM
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When I was fit I was doing many, many (didn't bother counting) fingertip pull-ups every day.
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jjgoodboy
Jan 2, 2013, 3:18 AM
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Lock off strength is important. Just make sure to balance it with your ability to climb dynamically, taking advantage of momentum.
To train lockoff strength the best thing to do is lock offs.
on a pullup bar
1) pull up to full lockoff and holding it as long as you can
2) Write down how many seconds you held
3) Rest about a minute or two and repeat. 2 to 4 sets.
Another thing you can do is on really easy routs do a lock off between each move and hold for count of 2 or 3. Just don't do that on serious stuff. It can start to affect your fluidity on routs. Movement is everything in climbing.
jjgoodboy
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lena_chita
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Jan 2, 2013, 8:06 PM
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nick97 wrote: thanks, ill try to rest 1-2 days in between. and to whoever asked what aspect of climbing im trying to improve. My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that
It is very unlikely that plain pullups on a bar will help you with lock off strength much (at all?), especially considering that you can already do 24 of them in one go. But you aren't asking what to do, you want to just know if you should do 200 pullups every day, or every other day...
Hmmm...
How about this: you want to do your pull-ups? Then go ahead. Sounds like you will be doing them every other day, based on the advice you have taken to heart.
Just take a note of 4-5 boulder problems and/or routes at the gym that you think you cannot currently do because of the lockoff strength, do your pull-ups routine however you want to do it for a couple of weeks, then see if those problems get sent.
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rgold
Jan 2, 2013, 11:18 PM
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I think Lena is being kind.
You won't build up lock-off strength by doing more of what already hasn't worked. Twenty-five pullups is plenty. You don't need to do more, you should in fact be doing fewer pullups at higher intensity. Or maybe you should be working on technique, but that's another issue and I'm going to stick with the pullups.
There are three pullup varieties that are much better adapted to your goal. (1) "Frenchies," (2) weighted pullups, and (3) uneven-grip pullups. The best thing is to do them all, either cycling through them or combining them into some sort of beastly daily routine. You absolutely have to rest at least one, probably two days between sessions.
(1) "Frenchies." You pause at a selection of arm angles. Basically a two-arm lock-off. Pause durations seem generally to run from 3 to 7 seconds. Arm angles are typically full lock with bar at the chest (not the chin), 90 degrees, and 135 degrees; some people do a lock at 45 degrees too.
The locks are usually prescribed for the lowering phase and one at a time, i.e. do a pullup to the top, lower to selected arm angle, hold for selected duration, continue to lower to full extension, pullup again and repeat with a different arm angle.
You get a bit more intensity if you do the locks on the way up, i.e. pull to 90 degrees, hold for selected duration, and continue pulling up. I think the best is to do all locks each time rather than one lock per pullup. So pull to 135 degrees, hold, pull to 90 degrees, hold, pull to full lock, hold, and repeat.
(2) Weighted pullups. It's pretty obvious what these are. Using weights gives you great control over the process. I'd recommend a level that allows you to do 3-5 sets of 5 reps.
(3) Uneven-grip pullups. Start with the lower hand gripping at the level of the elbow of the upper hand. Adjust hand spacing so you are in the 3-5 rep range. Eventual goal is to be doing these with the lower hand at the level of the armpit of the upper hand. The best set-up for this is a set of rings on adjustable straps.
When you are doing uneven grip pullups with the low arm at the upper arm armpit level, you'll probably be locking off pretty solidly, at which point you can do lock-off training, which is to pullup and then let go with one hand and hold with the other for a selected interval. You can also do both weighted pullups and uneven-grip pullups Frenchie-style.
Beware of getting "golfer's elbow," i.e. medial epicondylitis. If your elbows start twinging a bit, you should stop the session immediately, take a break, and then start back slowly at a reduced level. Whatever setbacks you get from this will be nothing compared to what will happen if you get a full-blown case of epicondylitis, which can incapacitate you for climbing and even everyday life for years.
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Co1urzz
Jan 2, 2013, 11:32 PM
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with more than a 100 reps in mind, i prefer rows, much less akward for your shoulders.
the most ive done in a day is 300(documented) pullups, varying between individual fingertips and full hand open girps(homemade rolling thunder type grips)
like i said tho, rows are alot more comfortable.
and mind you, im on a week cycle, i only workout my pull strength/finger strength off the rock once a week.
*EDIT* for pure lock off strength, do a pull up, and let go with one hand, mind you, you should be able to touch the ground and grip at the same time static. itll hurt alot just above the elbow in the bicep region, this is your tendons screaming in pain, listen to them.
(This post was edited by Co1urzz on Jan 2, 2013, 11:35 PM)
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yodadave
Jan 3, 2013, 12:06 AM
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plus one for contact strength built on a hangboard or by just climbing volume.
However....
if you simply love pullups then check out Stevie Hastons blog. He regularly seems to do 1000 pullup days! The man is a total machine
http://steviehaston.blogspot.com/
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fingerincrevice
Jan 9, 2013, 4:03 AM
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as far as building muscle goes, doing pullups everyday will not be the most efficient way to build muscle in your back. Muscle gains come from tearing the muscle down (working out) and then you get stronger from the recovery period in which the muscle fibers repair and come back stronger. I would also recommend working in other body parts to prevent muscle imbalances. Just my 2 cents. good luck
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DouglasHunter
Jan 14, 2013, 4:36 AM
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nick97 wrote: My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that
Folks like myself and Eva Lopez have looked for lock-offs in climbing and determined that they are not as common as people think. It's conventional wisdom that something called "lock-off strength" is necessary in climbing but when doing video analysis it doesn't really show up. It's highly unlikely that lacking lock-off strength is a weakness that you need to address.
See here:
http://www.selfcoachedclimber.com/2012/08/second-post-inspired-by-the-mccoll-training-video/
and see here:
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2012/09/lock-off-training-iii-do-you-really.html
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colatownkid
Jan 14, 2013, 12:40 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote: nick97 wrote: My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that Folks like myself and Eva Lopez have looked for lock-offs in climbing and determined that they are not as common as people think. It's conventional wisdom that something called "lock-off strength" is necessary in climbing but when doing video analysis it doesn't really show up. It's highly unlikely that lacking lock-off strength is a weakness that you need to address. See here: http://www.selfcoachedclimber.com/2012/08/second-post-inspired-by-the-mccoll-training-video/ and see here: http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2012/09/lock-off-training-iii-do-you-really.html
Douglas,
Does your video analysis include trad climbing as well? The two places where I feel my lock-off strength tends to be a limiting factor are select boulder problems and more frequently while trad climbing (ie. placing gear in an awkward or locked off position). Does your analysis account for this? Perhaps I need to adjust my gear placing strategies?
Edited for clarity, grammar.
(This post was edited by colatownkid on Jan 14, 2013, 4:43 PM)
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camhead
Jan 14, 2013, 4:03 PM
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colatownkid wrote: DouglasHunter wrote: nick97 wrote: My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that Folks like myself and Eva Lopez have looked for lock-offs in climbing and determined that they are not as common as people think. It's conventional wisdom that something called "lock-off strength" is necessary in climbing but when doing video analysis it doesn't really show up. It's highly unlikely that lacking lock-off strength is a weakness that you need to address. See here: http://www.selfcoachedclimber.com/2012/08/second-post-inspired-by-the-mccoll-training-video/ and see here: http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2012/09/lock-off-training-iii-do-you-really.html Douglas, Does your video analysis include trad climbing as well? In sport climbing, the two places where I feel my lock-off strength tends to be a limiting factor is select boulder problems and occasionally while trad climbing (ie. placing gear in an awkward or locked off position). Does your analysis account for this? Perhaps I need to adjust my gear placing strategies?
That's exactly what I was thinking. In most sport climbing, if you are clipping or spending a lot of time locked off, you're doing something wrong.
However, there is plenty of trad climbing where I've been pretty happy to have worked on long one-armed lockoff power. I'm thinking the Gunks, where you might be fiddling in some equalized horizontal rp's for 2-3 minutes, or even Indian Creek, where on thinner cracks, although you are not truly locking off the same way you would on a pullup bar, you are still smearing your feet on nothing, engaging your entire core, and holding most of your weight on one-arm.
Oh, and to the OP, read rgold's post, he's right on as always. Pullups by themselves (even fingertip pullups) are pretty inefficient climbing training. And if you do pullups on any hangboards at your climbing gym, you should hang your head in shame.
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colatownkid
Jan 14, 2013, 4:42 PM
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camhead wrote: colatownkid wrote: DouglasHunter wrote: nick97 wrote: My lockoffs are pretty weak so pullups i think would help with that Folks like myself and Eva Lopez have looked for lock-offs in climbing and determined that they are not as common as people think. It's conventional wisdom that something called "lock-off strength" is necessary in climbing but when doing video analysis it doesn't really show up. It's highly unlikely that lacking lock-off strength is a weakness that you need to address. See here: http://www.selfcoachedclimber.com/2012/08/second-post-inspired-by-the-mccoll-training-video/ and see here: http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2012/09/lock-off-training-iii-do-you-really.html Douglas, Does your video analysis include trad climbing as well? In sport climbing, the two places where I feel my lock-off strength tends to be a limiting factor is select boulder problems and occasionally while trad climbing (ie. placing gear in an awkward or locked off position). Does your analysis account for this? Perhaps I need to adjust my gear placing strategies? That's exactly what I was thinking. In most sport climbing, if you are clipping or spending a lot of time locked off, you're doing something wrong. However, there is plenty of trad climbing where I've been pretty happy to have worked on long one-armed lockoff power. I'm thinking the Gunks, where you might be fiddling in some equalized horizontal rp's for 2-3 minutes, or even Indian Creek, where on thinner cracks, although you are not truly locking off the same way you would on a pullup bar, you are still smearing your feet on nothing, engaging your entire core, and holding most of your weight on one-arm. Oh, and to the OP, read rgold's post, he's right on as always. Pullups by themselves (even fingertip pullups) are pretty inefficient climbing training. And if you do pullups on any hangboards at your climbing gym, you should hang your head in shame.
Exactly. However, I'm much less of an authority on the subject than Mr. Hunter, hence the question. I've had similar experiences, though. Sport climbing, I should be able to either "clip on the way by" so to speak or do a quick pull, clip, and then hang on straight arms. Trad climbing, though, I often find it difficult to place gear well at arm's length from the crack in question, particularly horizontals. Consequently, I'll find myself often pulling up and locking off to look at the crack, assess the placement size, place the piece, check the placement, and then continue. If the placement is strenuous, I'll often do these steps as discrete pull ups instead of locking off the entire time, but I still have to spend a few seconds evaluating every time.
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DouglasHunter
Jan 14, 2013, 5:58 PM
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colatownkid wrote: Douglas, Does your video analysis include trad climbing as well? The two places where I feel my lock-off strength tends to be a limiting factor are select boulder problems and more frequently while trad climbing (ie. placing gear in an awkward or locked off position). Does your analysis account for this? Perhaps I need to adjust my gear placing strategies?
You make a good point. Eva and I have only looked at sport climbing and bouldering. So there may be differences in trad climbing. As a general principle locking off during gear placement is a bad idea because its not efficient at all, but as someone who has climbed up to 5.12 trad in the Gunks I do understand that there are times when its going to happen.
I should also edit my previous post a little, as Eva and I are not in 100% agreement on the issue. Briefly its my sense that most lock-offs are a matter of climbing style and there are only a couple of situations in which they are actually necessary. In her work Eva suggests that lock-offs do exist but they are not what we think they are. In her analysis she does identify part of climbing movement as locking-off but the durations for which it occurs are fairly brief. Further, more advanced climbers have shorter lock off durations than do other climbers. She saw lock off durations for advanced climbers in the .15 - .30 second range.
Obviously, the lock-off is an idea that is not rigorously defined in the climbing community. Its a popular concept in climbing, but in the big picture I don't think it matters all that much.
For people who are interested in lock-off training keep an eye on Eva's blog because I believe she will be publishing some training recommendations based on her analysis.
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stevecurtis
Jan 14, 2013, 6:14 PM
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You might break into 5.11 with pull ups and weekend climbing. Don't expect to climb harder.
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