Forums: Climbing Information: General:
New Year's Resolution
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 


SylviaSmile


Dec 19, 2012, 3:01 PM
Post #1 of 14 (2466 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 3, 2011
Posts: 982

New Year's Resolution
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Stop tying in with the bowline?


jt512


Dec 19, 2012, 5:32 PM
Post #2 of 14 (2429 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [SylviaSmile] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post


Yeah, because obviously if a climber forgets to finish tying his knot, it's the fault of the knot.

Jay


guangzhou


Dec 19, 2012, 5:49 PM
Post #3 of 14 (2421 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3389

Re: [SylviaSmile] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

The bowline retraced through my harness is my knot of choice 90% of the time. I avoid it when Aid climbing because it can get a bit bulky when you add daisies, leashes, and the likes.



More importantly, why are people so worried about what knot I tie when I climb.

Safe and redundant. Of course, if you don't like the bowline, don't use it.


shockabuku


Dec 19, 2012, 7:57 PM
Post #4 of 14 (2360 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4861

Re: [jt512] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:

Yeah, because obviously if a climber forgets to finish tying his knot, it's the fault of the knot.

Jay

That has the same structure as most gun control arguments.


jt512


Dec 19, 2012, 8:26 PM
Post #5 of 14 (2342 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [shockabuku] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Yeah, because obviously if a climber forgets to finish tying his knot, it's the fault of the knot.

Jay

That has the same structure as most gun control arguments.

All analogies are imperfect, but that one more than most.

Jay


spiderman5


Jan 17, 2013, 8:26 PM
Post #6 of 14 (2045 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2012
Posts: 21

Re: [jt512] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I like how easy the figure 8 is for a partner to check. I feel like the biggest risk when climbing is human error


guangzhou


Jan 18, 2013, 2:40 AM
Post #7 of 14 (2027 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3389

Re: [spiderman5] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I like that climbing allows me to decide for myself.


Partner oldsalt


Jan 18, 2013, 5:02 AM
Post #8 of 14 (2014 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: 919

Re: [guangzhou] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

quangzhou:

If you mean that you have the right to decide which knot to use to tie yourself in, I would have the right to decide not to belay you unless you tie in with a figure-eight.

The climber-belayer relationship has many similarities to a marriage. Each partner has rights and responsibilities, and every match is not made in heaven. BUT, if you fell on my belay, and your bowline failed, I would have to live with the knowledge that I allowed you to be at risk. All of my skill, experience, and attention brought to the belay would be undone by a choice I disagreed with.

I am not saying that if you use a the bowline it will fail, just that a properly tied figure eight will not, under recreational climbing conditions. I have refused to belay non-figure 8 tie-ins. It did not cause noticeable friction between climber and belayer.


Partner cracklover


Jan 18, 2013, 2:17 PM
Post #9 of 14 (1944 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [SylviaSmile] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post


Worst article ever. Ugh.

Shall I take it piece by piece?

1 - The article implies that accidents are happening due to the bowline "working itself loose if not backed up properly".

As far as I know, that is misdirection bordering on outright lying. I'm unaware of *any* serious accidents caused by such working loose. Ever.

2 - The article states as fact that the complication of the knot and how difficult it is to inspect is the cause of the two recent accidents.

Now there is a pure bold-faced lie. These two accidents were caused because the knot was not tied!

Has *anyone* ever tied their bowline completely, but wrong, had it not inspected, and then fell because of it? Personally, I think this is just made up by trollers and then passed on by unscrupulous journalists.

3 - Next is the appeal to authority: "Know the bowline for what it is: An instrument of death," says Duane Raleigh "Almost every year someone dies because their bowline either came untied because the complicated knot was tied wrong, or because the bowline magically untied itself."

And his proof for this contention? One fall in England where there is no evidence that the knot was tied wrong or "untied itself".

4 - Finally, the article implies that since we are all human, and prone to mistake, the Fig-8 knot is therefore better because it is "as foolproof as possible"

Now that's almost criminal. To suggest that if you make the same mistake with your Fig 8 (start the knot, pass the rope through your harness, but don't finish it) you won't wind up just as dead with the Fig-8 as you would with the bowline couldn't be more wrong.

Believe me, I know. I almost got to watch my partner crater in front of me because of just how "foolproof" the Fig-8 knot is.

Personal story: Last fall I belayed a leader who left the ground with an unfinished fig-8 knot. He had made the eight, put it through his harness (bottom to top), and then somehow got distracted and didn't rethread it. Fortunately he noticed about 15 feet up, since he later fell on the route.

I felt bad, and I wish I had inspected his knot as I usually do. But the fact is, had he been tying in with a bowline, it would have made no difference at all, except that he himself would have been more likely to notice. Think about it.

John Long himself wrote about his accident: "I made the two bowline loops and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

So that means he simply had a straight rope, with no knots or bends, running through his harness when he left the ground. Does the author of the article seriously think that this could ever be missed by a belayer who inspects it? Yeah, because a straight rope is "complicated"

In my case, I did catch a glimpse of something that looked like an 8 with no backup knot, and a long tail. In other words, acceptable, though not ideal. Had I examined it closely, I would have obviously seen that it was not followed through. In John Long's case, if I had made that same glance around a hip I would not have seen anything that looked like a knot, and perhaps that would have been enough of a red flag to go in for a closer look. Certainly it would not have been less so.

Oh, and for full disclosure, I tie in with a double-bowline with a double fisherman's backup about 90% of the time. The rest of the time I use a fig-8 follow-through.

Cheers,

GO


billcoe_


Jan 19, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #10 of 14 (1887 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4668

Re: [cracklover] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

from the Outside article wrote:
harder for a partner to check visually.

I read that diatribe up there and have to say something. Good story in Outside mag in my view, please don't blow it off so easily. Reread that quote. This quote above is the best point to take away from the story. Indeed, which is why I've told my regular partner who ties in with the "foolproof" double bowline, several times, that I'm not checking his knot. I can't. "harder for a partner to check visually" - that's right on the money and leads to complacency.

Of course I try anyway. The figure 8 is easy to eyeball, even a beginner knows if it's right or wrong. This is not true of the double bowline. One guy I know who solos a lot doesn't think its the partners job to double check his double bowline knot anyway.

BTW, the reason figure 8s are so prevalent is because bowlines were becoming untied on climbers in the middle of climbs AND PEOPLE WERE DYING. (So please note that truth shockabubo on your #1 point commentary). Almost everyone switched over and went with the figure 8 in the early 70's for this very reason. The former majority of climbers which had been tieing in with bowlines dropped to closer to zero as folks mostly converted to the figure 8. Some, preferring the easy of untieing after a whipper that the bowline provided, went with a version of the bowline which seemed immune from the untieing itself issue. I've heard it called several things but lets go with "double bowline". As these folks were but statistically but few, and usually highly experienced, accidents with the double bowline were - and are, rare to hear about.

So continue to tie in with the double bowline GO, that's what makes the game so interesting, you have the freedom to do what you wish. As long as you are 100% perfect you'll be fine, but you admit in your story that you are not 100 percent perfect, and that's worthy of consideration.

For myself, I don't believe that it's worth that risk, I always check others knots and can figure out if the figure 8 on my buddy is perfect by a glance from quite some distance. I can't with the double bowline and know many others can't either. It was true in John Longs partners case. Clearly it was missed by the climber AND HIS PARTNER. Lynn Hill's parner same thing. As I understand it, she had her accident when her double bowline knot was not finished and she leaned back at the top of a climb and she plunged to the base. Same thing as JL except at a cliff, and she got super lucky. Clearly it was missed by both climbers AND BOTH OF THEIR PARTNERS. Same same scenario. If you wish to believe that you are better than Lynn Hill and John Long, I'd hope you may reconsider that thought.

There's 2 very prominent skilled expert climbers WITH IDENTICAL STORIES. Who really needs more stories before they convert? Well, I guess that I personally know 2 of them:-)

I'm glad that John Longs accident was only in a gym and thus survivable. I know we all wish him well. Good Outside article.


Oh, almost forgot, quoted for posterity.



cracklover wrote:

Worst article ever. Ugh.

Shall I take it piece by piece?

1 - The article implies that accidents are happening due to the bowline "working itself loose if not backed up properly".

As far as I know, that is misdirection bordering on outright lying. I'm unaware of *any* serious accidents caused by such working loose. Ever.

2 - The article states as fact that the complication of the knot and how difficult it is to inspect is the cause of the two recent accidents.

Now there is a pure bold-faced lie. These two accidents were caused because the knot was not tied!

Has *anyone* ever tied their bowline completely, but wrong, had it not inspected, and then fell because of it? Personally, I think this is just made up by trollers and then passed on by unscrupulous journalists.

3 - Next is the appeal to authority: "Know the bowline for what it is: An instrument of death," says Duane Raleigh "Almost every year someone dies because their bowline either came untied because the complicated knot was tied wrong, or because the bowline magically untied itself."

And his proof for this contention? One fall in England where there is no evidence that the knot was tied wrong or "untied itself".

4 - Finally, the article implies that since we are all human, and prone to mistake, the Fig-8 knot is therefore better because it is "as foolproof as possible"

Now that's almost criminal. To suggest that if you make the same mistake with your Fig 8 (start the knot, pass the rope through your harness, but don't finish it) you won't wind up just as dead with the Fig-8 as you would with the bowline couldn't be more wrong.

Believe me, I know. I almost got to watch my partner crater in front of me because of just how "foolproof" the Fig-8 knot is.

Personal story: Last fall I belayed a leader who left the ground with an unfinished fig-8 knot. He had made the eight, put it through his harness (bottom to top), and then somehow got distracted and didn't rethread it. Fortunately he noticed about 15 feet up, since he later fell on the route.

I felt bad, and I wish I had inspected his knot as I usually do. But the fact is, had he been tying in with a bowline, it would have made no difference at all, except that he himself would have been more likely to notice. Think about it.

John Long himself wrote about his accident: "I made the two bowline loops and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

So that means he simply had a straight rope, with no knots or bends, running through his harness when he left the ground. Does the author of the article seriously think that this could ever be missed by a belayer who inspects it? Yeah, because a straight rope is "complicated"

In my case, I did catch a glimpse of something that looked like an 8 with no backup knot, and a long tail. In other words, acceptable, though not ideal. Had I examined it closely, I would have obviously seen that it was not followed through. In John Long's case, if I had made that same glance around a hip I would not have seen anything that looked like a knot, and perhaps that would have been enough of a red flag to go in for a closer look. Certainly it would not have been less so.

Oh, and for full disclosure, I tie in with a double-bowline with a double fisherman's backup about 90% of the time. The rest of the time I use a fig-8 follow-through.

Cheers,

GO


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Jan 19, 2013, 11:32 AM)


Partner cracklover


Jan 21, 2013, 11:21 AM
Post #11 of 14 (1779 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [billcoe_] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

billcoe_ wrote:
So continue to tie in with the double bowline GO, that's what makes the game so interesting, you have the freedom to do what you wish. As long as you are 100% perfect you'll be fine, but you admit in your story that you are not 100 percent perfect, and that's worthy of consideration.

Please explain to me how either:
1 - Tying in with a Fig-8 knot means that, unlike me, you achieve 100% perfection, or
2 - When you tie a Fig-8, put the rope through your harness, but forget to follow it through, and your partner doesn't check it, you wind up less dead than I would if I did the same thing with my knot.

If you can't explain either, then you have absolutely no justification for your claim that my fucking up my knot (or John Long his) is any less safe than you fucking up yours.

Moving on to this business about the bowline being hard to inspect - it is a red herring, plain and simple. Can you give me one example of a climber tying, and finishing, a bowline, and then having it come undone because he tied it wrong and his partner couldn't inspect it? I just don't believe this has ever happened, or is likely to ever happen.

In reply to:
For myself, I don't believe that it's worth that risk, I always check others knots and can figure out if the figure 8 on my buddy is perfect by a glance from quite some distance. I can't with the double bowline and know many others can't either. It was true in John Longs partners case. Clearly it was missed by the climber AND HIS PARTNER.

You honestly think you cannot tell the difference between a straight line of rope going through your partner's harness and a finished bowline? That's just ridiculous.

These accidents were caused because the climber did not tie a knot, and then the partner did not check it. There's nothing more to it than that. The type of knot has zero bearing on either case.

GO


granite_grrl


Jan 21, 2013, 12:19 PM
Post #12 of 14 (1764 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14800

Re: [cracklover] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Interestingly enough the one time I failed to finish my knot and it was not caught by my partner it was with a figure-8. I didn't notice until I topped out on the pitch and was building the anchor. (scary!)

But don't worry, I have since started tying in with a bowline and have never had that problem again.


billcoe_


Jan 22, 2013, 11:54 AM
Post #13 of 14 (1718 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4668

Re: [cracklover] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'll try again. I'm saying that for me, I almost all but give up even looking if you are tieing in with a bowline. Whereas I will continue to look at your knot throughout a multi-pitch much more often and much closer. I suspect if you consider what the statistics measure, this holds true for others as well.

Take away in disbelief whatever you wish on that. It is what it is and I wouldn't mind tieing in with a bowline to actually go catch the famous Red-Herrings.....I do use the not to tie off trees at anchors all the time, (just a....gasp...regular bowline without the Yosemite flamparadiddle) so I do use it.

Regards:

Bill


cracklover wrote:
Please explain to me how either:
1 - Tying in with a Fig-8 knot means that, unlike me, you achieve 100% perfection, or
2 - When you tie a Fig-8, put the rope through your harness, but forget to follow it through, and your partner doesn't check it, you wind up less dead than I would if I did the same thing with my knot.

If you can't explain either, then you have absolutely no justification for your claim that my fucking up my knot (or John Long his) is any less safe than you fucking up yours.

Moving on to this business about the bowline being hard to inspect - it is a red herring, plain and simple. Can you give me one example of a climber tying, and finishing, a bowline, and then having it come undone because he tied it wrong and his partner couldn't inspect it? I just don't believe this has ever happened, or is likely to ever happen.

In reply to:
For myself, I don't believe that it's worth that risk, I always check others knots and can figure out if the figure 8 on my buddy is perfect by a glance from quite some distance. I can't with the double bowline and know many others can't either. It was true in John Longs partners case. Clearly it was missed by the climber AND HIS PARTNER.

You honestly think you cannot tell the difference between a straight line of rope going through your partner's harness and a finished bowline? That's just ridiculous.

These accidents were caused because the climber did not tie a knot, and then the partner did not check it. There's nothing more to it than that. The type of knot has zero bearing on either case.

GO


Partner cracklover


Jan 22, 2013, 12:32 PM
Post #14 of 14 (1707 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10010

Re: [billcoe_] New Year's Resolution [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billcoe_ wrote:
I'll try again. I'm saying that for me, I almost all but give up even looking if you are tieing in with a bowline. Whereas I will continue to look at your knot throughout a multi-pitch much more often and much closer.

In that case, it simply sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. You believe you can't check a bowline, so you don't, and this results in the bowline being "less safe".

Okay, cool, but... one last time: the people who are tying bowlines and falling off climbs - are they falling because they're tying their bowline wrong, and no-one can tell? No. In every situation I'm aware of, they failed to complete the bowline. That means no knot. That's what Lynne Hill said. That's what John Long said. And we can't ask the British guy, as he's deceased. But from all I've read, no-one saw any trace of a knot on the rope after he fell.

So to save your partner's life, you'd have to check whether or not there's a knot. Well that's up to you and your partner. But as for your claim that that makes the knot any less safe, I ain't gonna bite on them red herrings of yours!

Cheers,

GO


Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook