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Are men and women equal in the outdoors?
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billl7


Feb 7, 2013, 5:41 AM
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Re: [olderic] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
My point is that LC seems to be constantly lurking - lord knows how she has the time - and immediately dives in with an extremely predictable response. One might initially think that she is some sort of heroine fighting for truth justice and all that jazz. But to me she seems so happy to apply her stereotypical buckets (ironically something she complains about) without actually putting any thought into it that at best she comes across as a sort of Don Quixote and more likely the boy who cried wolf Her values and believes are worthy but the way she goes about defending them is silly. And the time she spends doing it in a place like this makes me seriously wonder.
Why a personal attack on a response that came from values and beliefs that are fundamentally worthy? Lena's taking more than her fair share of electrons here?

I grew up with 5 sisters, 4 of whom were close in age to mine. ... able and strong women every week of the month; same with my wife.

Intentionally or not, Majid's humor fosters something not just inappropriate but false and easily believed by those in the half of us who don't have the experiences to know better.

Bill L


granite_grrl


Feb 7, 2013, 5:42 AM
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Re: [viciado] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
... I would like rc.com to be a place where women feel comfortable reading and posting.

In the context of the OP... only women?

Men should feel comfortable too, but I donít see as many of these rude comments made towards men as are made towards women.


viciado


Feb 7, 2013, 5:57 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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Agreed on both points. In terms of the OP, the statement that [we] "would like like rc.com to be a place where women feel comfortable reading and posting." is made at all indicates an inequity; perceived or real; on the site. If we are to discuss equality, then it is reasonable to (attempt to) consider all parties. Given the flame wars here, there may be hope for equality even if there is no hope for" comfortable reading." Wink


lena_chita
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Feb 7, 2013, 6:24 AM
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Re: [olderic] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
interesting topic and as far as you can go back in time, IMO,men are like a diesel engine, they can run 30 days non-stop where women have to take 10 days off every month for maintenance check up


... and this, ladies and gentlemen, is a very good example of a senseless sexist comment that you are supposed to consider humorous.

I was wondering how long it would take for the LC knee jerk response to appear. A little over 30 minutes - she's still got it.

You know what co-incidence means? it is when two unrelated events occur close in time. Such as, the OP posting his survey, and me having time to check RC.com.

I am glad to know that you were eagerly waiting for my response. Obviously I spend a lot of times here. It took only 25 more posts before I had time to check back.

Yes, equality is one of the subjects I consider important, and make a point to respond to, every time a topic comes up. And I believe that letting sexist remarks stand unchallenged/uncommented on further perpetuates the attitudes that are outdated and need changing.

I clicked on the survey, too, and answered the questions, in case you were wondering. And I considered the survey poorly made and unlikely to produce any meaningful data for analysis, just as the majority of such survey-monkey surveys. I can discuss it point-by-point, in case the OP is interested.


camhead


Feb 7, 2013, 6:33 AM
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Re: [viciado] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
... I would like rc.com to be a place where women feel comfortable reading and posting.

In the context of the OP... only women?

I agree! And while we're on the topic, why is there no WHITE history month?


viciado


Feb 7, 2013, 6:53 AM
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Re: [camhead] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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Sly


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 7, 2013, 7:22 AM
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Re: [jordazz] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
... no one - well very few - will argue that the original comment was appropriate

Wow! We no longer need to watch Fox News to see that there are people out there propagating myths about male superiority/female weakness....

In reply to:
Majid's comment was inappropriate.

Saying nothing when such inappropriate comments are made is giving tacit approval to them. (He said that... but nobody said anything... I guess it is ok.) Therefor it si both appropriate, and needed, that people saying such inappropriate things be called on them. It can be difficult to do, and can result in being attacked yourself -- especially online. But it is correct and needed. lena_chita was quite correct to do this, and did it in a quite appropriate way.

VERY well stated. This would have been applicable to the recent rampage on misogyny over at Supertopo the last week.


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 7, 2013, 7:24 AM
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Re: [viciado] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
... I would like rc.com to be a place where women feel comfortable reading and posting.

In the context of the OP... only women?

It was clearly intended to be in context of Olderic's misogynistic opinion, which he purported to be
a factual statement.

Why do you suggest it was about the OP?


shimanilami


Feb 7, 2013, 7:50 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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Talk about hijacking a thread!

Majid, once again, proves himself to be the undisputed king of trolls.


Gmburns2000


Feb 7, 2013, 7:59 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
Talk about hijacking a thread!

Majid, once again, proves himself to be the undisputed king of trolls.


This. And knowing Eric, I'm betting he just decided to move it along a bit.

Not that either's comments were appropriate.


billl7


Feb 7, 2013, 8:34 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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And I think RC.com will have finally "arrived" when women are posting jokes like Majid's and/or calling "troll" on such posts.


majid_sabet


Feb 7, 2013, 9:43 AM
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Re: [jordazz] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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you RCers can't even discuss a simple matter here without jumping on each others and I wonder how are you going to help OP ?

For every 10 male climbers who summit an 8000 meter peak, may be 1-2 women do the same. that is a fact and if you do not believe me, visit base camps to see it yourself.


lena_chita
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Feb 7, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
you RCers can't even discuss a simple matter here without jumping on each others and I wonder how are you going to help OP ?

For every 10 male climbers who summit an 8000 meter peak, may be 1-2 women do the same. that is a fact and if you do not believe me, visit base camps to see it yourself.

Why wouldn't we believe you?

According to any number of studies that attempted to estimate this, women make up about 20% of climbers. Which would match your numbers pretty well.

And your point is?


camhead


Feb 7, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
For every 10 male climbers who summit an 8000 meter peak, may be 1-2 women do the same. that is a fact and if you do not believe me, visit base camps to see it yourself.

That doesn't mean anything. Since you love your numbers and stats so much, why don't you plug in the data and see if women fail to summit at a higher rate than men? That might actually give you something to argue.


majid_sabet


Feb 7, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
you RCers can't even discuss a simple matter here without jumping on each others and I wonder how are you going to help OP ?

For every 10 male climbers who summit an 8000 meter peak, may be 1-2 women do the same. that is a fact and if you do not believe me, visit base camps to see it yourself.

Why wouldn't we believe you?

According to any number of studies that attempted to estimate this, women make up about 20% of climbers. Which would match your numbers pretty well.

And your point is?

one of my female friend just came back from hiking to South pole, some 22 days of hauling 150 lbs of stuff in sub-zero temp. Another best female climber friend of mine who attempt to climb K2 in 2010 was killed on G2 in 2011 for a simple mistake and my closest female friend in Yosemite climbs stuff where none of you would even dream to climb so I been around female climbers to see what their capabilities are but, when we talk about whether men and women are equal in outdoors, the true answer IMO is No, they are not equal. We have to compare them on case by case only.


carabiner96


Feb 7, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Re: [camhead] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
curt wrote:

I was there when Camhead led Kansas City with no falls (and I took some pics)



There was no gear left overnight then. Not that this has anything to do with the true topic at hand, of course.

Curt

Heh, I'd not seen those pics before, Curt! I think Olderic was talking about an incident prior to the time that I sent the route, although I did not leave gear overnight, and certainly did not "whine about the results." The only results were that the internets got butthurt at me.
old Eric is still butthurty over, let alone remembers, something that happened in 2009?


billl7


Feb 7, 2013, 10:20 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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A local climbing club has 108 members with 21 folks rated as club "Leaders". They do a mix of single-pitch and multi-pitch climbing.

~37% overall are women
~24% of those with a "Leader" rating are women

Doesn't strike me as obviously discriminatory but some may disagree.

I'm no longer part of the group. But back when I was, for multi-pitch, the hardest thing for women was in finding either like-minded female partners or male partners whose spouse's were okay with husband spending all day outside with another woman.


Gmburns2000


Feb 7, 2013, 10:35 AM
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Re: [billl7] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
A local climbing club has 108 members with 21 folks rated as club "Leaders". They do a mix of single-pitch and multi-pitch climbing.

~37% overall are women
~24% of those with a "Leader" rating are women

Doesn't strike me as obviously discriminatory but some may disagree.

I'm no longer part of the group. But back when I was, for multi-pitch, the hardest thing for women was in finding either like-minded female partners or male partners whose spouse's were okay with husband spending all day outside with another woman.

or single male partners who weren't going to hit on her all day long.


MikeDierson


Feb 7, 2013, 10:36 AM
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Re: [jordazz] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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I find that it is easier for the man to take a urine high on the wall. Otherwise equal.


Gmburns2000


Feb 7, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
billl7 wrote:
A local climbing club has 108 members with 21 folks rated as club "Leaders". They do a mix of single-pitch and multi-pitch climbing.

~37% overall are women
~24% of those with a "Leader" rating are women

Doesn't strike me as obviously discriminatory but some may disagree.

I'm no longer part of the group. But back when I was, for multi-pitch, the hardest thing for women was in finding either like-minded female partners or male partners whose spouse's were okay with husband spending all day outside with another woman.

or single male partners who weren't going to hit on her all day long.

not that I know you or what you're talking about; I was just making an educated guess.


granite_grrl


Feb 7, 2013, 10:49 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
billl7 wrote:
A local climbing club has 108 members with 21 folks rated as club "Leaders". They do a mix of single-pitch and multi-pitch climbing.

~37% overall are women
~24% of those with a "Leader" rating are women

Doesn't strike me as obviously discriminatory but some may disagree.

I'm no longer part of the group. But back when I was, for multi-pitch, the hardest thing for women was in finding either like-minded female partners or male partners whose spouse's were okay with husband spending all day outside with another woman.

or single male partners who weren't going to hit on her all day long.

While this does happen, I've had tons of single male partners (while I've been single, dating and married) that haven't hit on me. I'd say that as a rule, guys that take climbing seriously aren't going to hit on their climbing partners.


lena_chita
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Feb 7, 2013, 10:56 AM
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billl7 wrote:
A local climbing club has 108 members with 21 folks rated as club "Leaders". They do a mix of single-pitch and multi-pitch climbing.

~37% overall are women
~24% of those with a "Leader" rating are women

Doesn't strike me as obviously discriminatory but some may disagree.

It is not "discriminatory", unless the club had a policy, either official or unofficial, to make it harder for women to join, or to become a " leader".


But obviously, with percentage of females in the US being somewhere ~ 50.6%, the women are under-represented in this club of yours, as well as in climbing community in general.


billl7


Feb 7, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Are men and women equal in the outdoors? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
It is not "discriminatory", unless the club had a policy, either official or unofficial, to make it harder for women to join, or to become a " leader".
No such policy.

And knowing the club, I believe they do not discrimate at the entry level. So if there were yet hidden discriminatory habits within the club, I'd expect the percentages of women at the Leader level to be much smaller. So I'm think this club does treat women equally in the outdoors.

lena_chita wrote:
But obviously, with percentage of females in the US being somewhere ~ 50.6%, the women are under-represented in this club of yours, as well as in climbing community in general.

Sure. And in my experience, it's not because they are explicitly kept by male climbers/leaders from becoming female climbers/leaders - the topic I assumed but I have to confess I did not answer the survey so may have missed something.

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