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Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 11, 2013, 6:53 PM
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Re: [Syd] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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Syd wrote:
OK, so it's Monday ... where's the data supporting the crap the TR is more dangerous ?...


Dear Syd - The "data" comes from that person's many, many years climbing(since 1969, according to this...data)
http://www.accessfund.org/...15733&ct=6816317

I think maldaly has seen a few things in those years, and probably enough that he could hazard a fairly accurate statement when it comes to results from TR's gone wrong vs. lead climbing accidents.

Which is more dangerous? The one you are doing at the moment, I guess!


(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 11, 2013, 6:54 PM)


Syd


Feb 11, 2013, 8:29 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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One man's personal opinion is not "data" !

There's dozens of experienced climbers here amongst the 234,943 users (that's data).


(This post was edited by Syd on Feb 11, 2013, 8:32 PM)


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 12, 2013, 7:57 AM
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Re: [Syd] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

You then command he produce links to back up his point as if he was some gumby that's been climbing about half a year.


I've only been climbing a half dozen years or so, but thinking back of all the accidents I know of from my local crag in that time, there has been only one death from toprope(anchor wrapped round a tree was incompleted with carabiner connection point, apparently). There's been several deaths on the lead, maybe half a dozen in my memory.

I wouldn't be able to say definitively the injuries on lead vs TR, but when I bring the ones I can recall to my mind, I recall plenty of tweaked ankles broken ankles, broken legs and ribs and the like. Usually the result of rope stretch or belayer error/inattentiveness(such as too much slack when a fall would go to a ledge). I come up with two lead injuries that involved a broken back and another becoming parapalegic.


What about yourself? Can you recall the injuries and deaths you personally know of and come to any conclusions?



And as for lots of experience on this site... well, let's see.... I can think of Maldaly and RGold, Curt and maybe a handful of others, but....I'dbe hard pressed to come up with dozens, frankly.

By the way - where's your data to support that?Tongue


jt512


Feb 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

First of all, Mal's claim was ambiguous, as I mentioned in my previous post, and depending on how you resolve the ambiguity, possibly false. If you exclude lowering accidents, is it really true that there are more injuries top roping than leading? I'm skeptical. Further, if you want to answer the question, Which is inherently more dangerous? then you have to compare the activities for equally experienced climbers and consider the accident rate per pitch climbed. On that basis, I can't imagine how top roping could be considered more dangerous than leading.

However, the demand for hard data was unreasonable, since none likely exist, at least for US climbers. No one, to my knowledge, collects, or has collected, reliable statistics. It would be interesting, though, if Mal would clarify his claim and explain why he thinks it is true.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 AM
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Re: [jt512] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
happiegrrrl wrote:
I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

First of all, Mal's claim was ambiguous, as I mentioned in my previous post, and depending on how you resolve the ambiguity, possibly false. If you exclude lowering accidents, is it really true that there are more injuries top roping than leading? I'm skeptical. Further, if you want to answer the question, Which is inherently more dangerous? then you have to compare the activities for equally experienced climbers and consider the accident rate per pitch climbed. On that basis, I can't imagine how top roping could be considered more dangerous than leading.

However, the demand for hard data was unreasonable, since none likely exist, at least for US climbers. No one, to my knowledge, collects, or has collected, reliable statistics. It would be interesting, though, if Mal would clarify his claim and explain why he thinks it is true.

Jay

I got the sense that Mal was suggestion leading is more dangerous since, well, according to him, more people die doing it. To me, that's more dangerous.

But I believe that it's possible more injuries can come from top-roping simply because it's reasonable to think that there are more inexperienced people top-roping (i.e. - the gumby factor leads to more injuries).

I don't have data of course, but that's how I read it. I also read TR and lowering as being in the same category with leading in a separate category. Sure, one also typically lowers when leading, but one probably lowers more often when TRing. I've rarely walked off a TR, unless I was cleaning the anchors.


shimanilami


Feb 12, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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Assuming all other things are equal - e.g. anchor quality, climber/belayer skill level and state of mind, etc. - leading is more dangerous than top-roping. This is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgeon of sense.

If more people are injured top-toping, then it is because "other things" are not equal, not because the activity itself is more dangerous.


Syd


Feb 12, 2013, 2:45 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] more dangerious??? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
...leading is more dangerous than top-roping. This is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgeon of sense.

Yes. clearly there's plenty who don't have a smidgeon of sense.

Of course, you can make leading or top roping as dangerous as you want by choosing stupid belayers or doing any number of stupid things. If top roping was inherently more dangerous that leading, leading would not have 25 times the number of accidents as seconding (data in table 6):

http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_WEMJ_RMRG_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf

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