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USnavy


Mar 21, 2013, 1:04 PM
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Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer
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As you may recall Wal-Mart tried to pass on credit card fees to the banks. Then, some banks tried to pass the fees back onto the consumer in the form of a monthly fee. Well, now Visa stated they are authorizing any business to pass onto the consumer the credit card fees. I will be sure to avoid businesses that choose to enact this surcharge.

http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/checkout_fees/index.html


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Mar 22, 2013, 10:55 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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Old news.


notapplicable


Mar 22, 2013, 7:58 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
As you may recall Wal-Mart tried to pass on credit card fees to the banks. Then, some banks tried to pass the fees back onto the consumer in the form of a monthly fee. Well, now Visa stated they are authorizing any business to pass onto the consumer the credit card fees. I will be sure to avoid businesses that choose to enact this surcharge.

http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/checkout_fees/index.html

The free market cares. I suspect you're just not crying loud enough for it to hear you.


qwert


Mar 23, 2013, 3:06 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert


USnavy


Mar 24, 2013, 1:00 AM
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Re: [qwert] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 24, 2013, 1:05 AM)


notapplicable


Mar 24, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.

Oh and debit cards are not "essentially like cash". Yes, money is deducted from your account as though you spent the cash but the process by which that happens in a fast and secure way is not simple or cheap.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 24, 2013, 12:44 PM)


dr_feelgood


Mar 24, 2013, 3:20 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.

Oh and debit cards are not "essentially like cash". Yes, money is deducted from your account as though you spent the cash but the process by which that happens in a fast and secure way is not simple or cheap.
USNoob is a socialist.


petsfed


Mar 24, 2013, 6:03 PM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:
USNoob is a socialist.

Don't throw me in with the likes of him!

But seriously, if you aren't trying to avoid sub-$5 transactions (or asking which costs them less, credit or debit) at your favorite stores, you don't get to complain about paying fees for your credit card transactions.

A minimum transaction to stave off a processing fee is actually a very good approach, and should motivate people to keep $10 on hand to e.g. tip your fucking waiter.


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Mar 24, 2013, 6:09 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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From one forum to another! It's time for a move to the Soapbox with this one...


USnavy


Mar 24, 2013, 10:18 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.
Yes, such huge operating costs, banks are in the shitter and saving every penny to get by. Yea right, apparently you havent looked at the stock of Fannie Mae recently. They have over $3.2 trillion in assets in 2010. I am sure they are really being hit hard by my money-saving habits.

Anyway, what exactly do you think these credit card companies expect when they offer a credit card to someone with an 800 credit score? They sure as hell dont expect someone with that high of a score to go and max it out and never pay anything but interest. All of the best credit cards require credit scores over 740, which is exactly the group of people least likely to incur interest. There is a big difference between expecting something for nothing and accepting it when it is handed to you on a silver platter.

What I have a problem with is the shifting of the fee responsibility from the merchants to the consumers. While I understand some small businesses may be on a tight budget, large corporations sure as hell are not. Wal-Mart makes more money in five minutes than anyone on this website will make in their lifetime--they can afford the credit card fees. This whole ordeal sounds like the product of some bullshit Washington lobbying efforts where multibillionaire corporations somehow convince the dunces in congress that they are too broke to afford Visa's fees and the rich consumers who make $40,000 a year are better equipped to handle those fees.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 24, 2013, 10:27 PM)


notapplicable


Mar 24, 2013, 11:50 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.
Yes, such huge operating costs, banks are in the shitter and saving every penny to get by. Yea right, apparently you havent looked at the stock of Fannie Mae recently. They have over $3.2 trillion in assets in 2010. I am sure they are really being hit hard by my money-saving habits.

Anyway, what exactly do you think these credit card companies expect when they offer a credit card to someone with an 800 credit score? They sure as hell dont expect someone with that high of a score to go and max it out and never pay anything but interest. All of the best credit cards require credit scores over 740, which is exactly the group of people least likely to incur interest. There is a big difference between expecting something for nothing and accepting it when it is handed to you on a silver platter.

What I have a problem with is the shifting of the fee responsibility from the merchants to the consumers. While I understand some small businesses may be on a tight budget, large corporations sure as hell are not. Wal-Mart makes more money in five minutes than anyone on this website will make in their lifetime--they can afford the credit card fees. This whole ordeal sounds like the product of some bullshit Washington lobbying efforts where multibillionaire corporations somehow convince the dunces in congress that they are too broke to afford Visa's fees and the rich consumers who make $40,000 a year are better equipped to handle those fees.

It's never been on a silver platter dude, don't delude yourself. The consumer pays no matter what. Either you pay the fees associated with your card and it's use or the merchant pays and spreads that cost across all goods sold and all consumers split that cost. Now, I personally pay cash for anything under $30 95% of the time. I make it a point to do so for several reasons. All of my major bills are payed directly from my checking account so my CC's get used very little. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to pay more for the goods I purchase because you don't want to pay the costs associated with the use of YOUR card, that YOU choose to use.

Now, is there a better model? I think so. I say do away with fees at the point of sale and charge an annual fee to use the card. Perhaps it could be scaled to the volume of purchases made or perhaps it should be a flat fee but what we have now is silly and is the very definition of "hidden costs".

Seriously though, corporations pay CC user fees just like they pay taxes. If you believe otherwise, I have bridge for sale that you might be interested in...


Kartessa


Mar 25, 2013, 8:34 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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First World Problems


carabiner96


Mar 25, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.
Yes, such huge operating costs, banks are in the shitter and saving every penny to get by. Yea right, apparently you havent looked at the stock of Fannie Mae recently. They have over $3.2 trillion in assets in 2010. I am sure they are really being hit hard by my money-saving habits.

Anyway, what exactly do you think these credit card companies expect when they offer a credit card to someone with an 800 credit score? They sure as hell dont expect someone with that high of a score to go and max it out and never pay anything but interest. All of the best credit cards require credit scores over 740, which is exactly the group of people least likely to incur interest. There is a big difference between expecting something for nothing and accepting it when it is handed to you on a silver platter.

What I have a problem with is the shifting of the fee responsibility from the merchants to the consumers. While I understand some small businesses may be on a tight budget, large corporations sure as hell are not. Wal-Mart makes more money in five minutes than anyone on this website will make in their lifetime--they can afford the credit card fees. This whole ordeal sounds like the product of some bullshit Washington lobbying efforts where multibillionaire corporations somehow convince the dunces in congress that they are too broke to afford Visa's fees and the rich consumers who make $40,000 a year are better equipped to handle those fees.
Why should the merchant pay for your convenience? Joes Crab Shack isn't pointing a gun at your head forcing you to swipe.


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Mar 25, 2013, 2:10 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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I've only read the first few posts, but went to click the link to see what it said - and it does say
In reply to:
Retailers are permitted to apply a surcharge to only credit card purchases and cannot impose a surcharge for purchases made using a debit or prepaid card.


I would like to point out, though, that when credit cards first came into regular use, retailers were sold the concept of accepting those cards as a way to capture more sales(because people would be inclined to purchase beyond what they normally would with cash).

Any business person with a brain has already included the cost of doing c/card transactions in their costs. Small businesses liked "cash" because they got to pocket that additional bit. It wasn't like they were "out" any money(since it was already accounted for in selling price).

It would be an extraordinarily bizarre occurrence if retailers suddenly reduced prices by whatever the percentage they have had to pay is, now that they are passing that fee to consumer. It would be the *right* thing to do - but doing the right thing, when it comes to making money in the US, seems to be something most do not comprehend.


petsfed


Mar 25, 2013, 3:30 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
Any business person with a brain has already included the cost of doing c/card transactions in their costs. Small businesses liked "cash" because they got to pocket that additional bit. It wasn't like they were "out" any money(since it was already accounted for in selling price).

Actually moves by i.e. Walmart to force down the price of certain goods means that simply to stay competitive, smaller shops have to eat the cc costs. I've been to several places, mostly small convenience stores, where they do post a credit-card minimum because the cost of the transaction is greater than their margin.


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Mar 25, 2013, 4:29 PM
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Of course I have encountered that (posted charge minimum) but don't think it is done to stay competitive,

For instance, I am in the JT Rock Park Cafe which has a $10 charge minimum(which they will apply to deb card purchases as well). Yes, the fee takes away from their take, but one could not say they are charging the fee to be competitive...

I just ordered a toasted bagel, with butter, thinking it would be about $2. I was floored, when she said "$3.25 please."


petsfed


Mar 25, 2013, 5:49 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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You misunderstand. I currently work in retail, and I hear an awful lot of "well, its cheaper at walmart, I'll just get it over there", even if the difference is $1 on a $20 item. That's a 5% difference. Now, a lot of things we sell have a wider margin than 5%, but a lot don't, and since we can't bully the manufacturer into selling it to us cheaper (like walmart does), we just have to lower our price to stay competitive, even if it means wiping out our margin. Things covered in our margin *include* credit/debit fees.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of where I work at the moment, but other retail/customer service joints I've worked at also had the same problem. And its not an issue for the big grocers, the walmarts, the REIs of the world. Its about a dime a transaction, so any place that mostly does small transactions is gonna feel it, especially coffee shops, minimarts, that sort of thing. If JT Rock Park Cafe has 300 customers in a day, if half of them pay with a card, the store loses $15 for the privilege of serving these people. If the shop has 3 full-time, minimum wage employees, that's the equivalent of giving each of them a 50-cent raise, in terms of costs.


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Mar 25, 2013, 8:21 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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I do see your point and thanks for explaining.

Still, it is pretty sad how stores went from seeing that fee as the "small price to pay" for capturing sales they wouldn't otherwise have(which WAS the way it was originally framed) to seeing that same fee as now to be losing money.

But, that"go to WMart" is so true. People will post al sorts of "how much I care" crap all over their Facebook feed. They "care" about their community, about hardworking people getting shafted and such,. But even as the destructive economic pattern of the "Bigs" taking over retail has been clearly demonstrated and backed up with facts, people ignore it because they either "can't afford to pay more" or feel they would be foolish to do so when the "cheaper" option in available.


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Mar 28, 2013, 7:58 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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I guess you have never seen a sign like this before?


Or, more likely, you just couldn't connect the dots?


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Mar 30, 2013, 8:36 PM
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That would be the "cash discount" which has always been an option for businesses to offer and has nothing to do with c/card companies. Those who don't have two-tiered pricing simply choose to pocket the extra money.

The "added fee" is different, and in theory, one potentially could go to that very gas station with the cash/card prices displated, turn on the pump and then have to "accept" the additional fee on top of that price before authorizing the pump to deliver gas.


Kartessa


Apr 1, 2013, 8:30 AM
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Cabs in Ottawa have a $1.50 surcharge for Visa or Debit... but that's been that way for a long time


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Apr 1, 2013, 2:01 PM
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I thought the cost to the vendor by the CC company was passed on to the customer through the additional price, above the cash price.


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Apr 1, 2013, 2:43 PM
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That would be the case in the image you posted. The cash price doesn't include fees associated with card. The Credit price does.

But the surcharge this law covers would be in addition to the price posted for "credit." The law states that the fee cannot be added for debit card purchases, so those paying with a debit card would pay the posted price. Those using credit card would be asked to accept the surcharge on TOP of that posted price.


I haven't followed this issue, and only heard about it here on this thread (I still get at least SOME of my news from rc.com!), but I will bet that the surcharge is coming. The economy is difficult these days, and no doubt no big corp is looking to risk the negative PR they will receive from being the first one to go for it. But one will, I bet, and soon enough the rest will follow.


USnavy


Apr 6, 2013, 8:50 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
I guess you have never seen a sign like this before?
[image]http://blogs-images.forbes.com/halahtouryalai/files/2011/10/1021_gasoline-cash-credit_400x280.jpg[/image]

Or, more likely, you just couldn't connect the dots?

I've climbed at over 50 destinations around the globe, but no I have never seen that before... Like I said above, I avoid places who add surcharges to credit card purchases. Over 90% of gas stations do not impose additional fees to customers who opt to use their Visa so I have no issue with avoiding the 10% who do.

happiegrrrl wrote:
But one will, I bet, and soon enough the rest will follow.
After which Visa's stock will, as I suspect, end up in the shitter. What the hell was Visa thinking when they opted for the passage of this bill? How could they arrive at the conclusion that it would be good for business if they charged consumers a fee for using their product so that consumers are motivated not to use that very product? Apparently Visa was not paying attention when Bank of America tried to impose a $5 monthly debit card fee. Within a day their stock dropped into a black hole, countless thousands of consumers closed their accounts and the CFO and CEO got a massive public bitch slap. And Visa thinks this fee is good for business how?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 6, 2013, 9:01 AM)


USnavy


Apr 6, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: [carabiner96] Visa authorizes credit card fees to be passed onto the consumer [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
USnavy wrote:
qwert wrote:
The more I learn about the american credit card system, the more astonished I am about it.

Sounds like a normal and reasonable procedure to me. If you want to avoid the costs of credit cards - pay cash.
If you want the benefits of a credit card - pay for your credit card.

qwert
And what about debit cards? Debit cards are essentially like cash, yet I believe these fees apply to debit cards as well. IMO, cash is a dead currency in America. I know a number of people still use it; however, the vast majority of Americans pay with plastic. Plastic has MANY benefits over cash: charge-back options, no fraud liability, cash back rewards, automatic currency conversion, you dont loose any money if you loose the card and the list goes on and on.

While racking up huge amounts debt is clearly irresponsible and stupid, there is nothing wrong with using plastic to pay for items you already have the funds to cover. I have used credit cards exclusively for the last five years, yet I have never paid a dime in interest. It is not that hard to pay off the balance within 25 days if you dont overspend. Furthermore, credit cards are pretty much mandatory for establishing credit.

So you want all the benefits that come with the use of credit/debit cards but you don't want to pay a penny for the privilege of doing so? You want huge financial institutions, with enormous operating costs, to provide you with the convenience and security of a credit card at no charge to you? You want something, for nothing. And you think that is reasonable? Amazing.
Yes, such huge operating costs, banks are in the shitter and saving every penny to get by. Yea right, apparently you havent looked at the stock of Fannie Mae recently. They have over $3.2 trillion in assets in 2010. I am sure they are really being hit hard by my money-saving habits.

Anyway, what exactly do you think these credit card companies expect when they offer a credit card to someone with an 800 credit score? They sure as hell dont expect someone with that high of a score to go and max it out and never pay anything but interest. All of the best credit cards require credit scores over 740, which is exactly the group of people least likely to incur interest. There is a big difference between expecting something for nothing and accepting it when it is handed to you on a silver platter.

What I have a problem with is the shifting of the fee responsibility from the merchants to the consumers. While I understand some small businesses may be on a tight budget, large corporations sure as hell are not. Wal-Mart makes more money in five minutes than anyone on this website will make in their lifetime--they can afford the credit card fees. This whole ordeal sounds like the product of some bullshit Washington lobbying efforts where multibillionaire corporations somehow convince the dunces in congress that they are too broke to afford Visa's fees and the rich consumers who make $40,000 a year are better equipped to handle those fees.
Why should the merchant pay for your convenience? Joes Crab Shack isn't pointing a gun at your head forcing you to swipe.
Why should Wal-Mart pave parking lots instead of making you find your own parking? For the exact same reason any business does anything, to make money. It is a risk negotiation. Wal-Mart paves expensive parking lots for the same reason Joe's Crab Shack accepts credit cards; they both hope that improving your convince will persuade you to shop with them. No one is holding a gun at Joe's head forcing him to accept credit cards, for he can decide to run a cash-only business.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 6, 2013, 10:59 AM)

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