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UpToTheOzone


Mar 18, 2013, 9:24 AM
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Rope management for high wind rappels?
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I remember a previous mentor telling me how we could stack the rope over a sling and hang it between our legs or something? It made sense at the time, but I can't visualize how to do this or where the sling would be attached on my harness. Can someone clarify this please?

Over the years I've become very good at getting my ropes unstuck, but I'd rather become good at preventing my ropes from getting stuck in the first place


olderic


Mar 18, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Standard setup is to make "saddle bags" - rope butterflyed through a sling on each side of your harness


Partner rgold


Mar 18, 2013, 5:35 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.


Kartessa


Mar 18, 2013, 5:50 PM
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Re: [rgold] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk


bearbreeder


Mar 19, 2013, 7:13 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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either way works ...

saddlebag ... or flake the rope over your extension ... both have advantages/disadvantages

the key is neatness

if you DO sadldlebag it ... flake it over the slings attached to the anchor first then transfer it to your harness ... faster and cleaner

Wink


notapplicable


Mar 20, 2013, 6:54 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.


UpToTheOzone


Mar 20, 2013, 7:55 PM
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Re: [rgold] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

Can you clarify this? Would the 2nd person make a saddlebag out of the end of the rope that is not lowered then do a standard 2 strand rap? Would you have the person who was lowered fix their end to the next anchor and rap off of a single strand?


Partner rgold


Mar 20, 2013, 8:49 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Lower the first person down using both strands. The second person rappels as usual.


curt


Mar 20, 2013, 9:03 PM
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Re: [rgold] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Lower the first person down using both strands. The second person rappels as usual.

Or, lower him on one strand--so long as he also takes the other end of the rope with him. The key thing is that the person lowered gets to the next rappel anchor and is able to secure both ends of the rope there.

Curt


Kartessa


Mar 21, 2013, 5:51 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.


sknowlton


Mar 21, 2013, 6:49 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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In most cases, leg wraps can be used to go hands free if needed on a rappel. Can't speak to your individual case though K---


Kartessa


Mar 21, 2013, 7:22 AM
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Re: [sknowlton] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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sknowlton wrote:
In most cases, leg wraps can be used to go hands free if needed on a rappel. Can't speak to your individual case though K---

Indeed, I've found it to be awkward though.

In this case the rope was wrapped pretty good around the tree, not enough free rope to get close and leg wrap.


moose_droppings


Mar 21, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Another option for "high" wind days would be to flake the ropes into a pack or a rope bucket secured to you and let the rope/s feed out as you rap.


notapplicable


Mar 21, 2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.

Why didn't you add the autoblock once you knew it was needed?


Kartessa


Mar 22, 2013, 4:32 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.

Why didn't you add the autoblock once you knew it was needed?
Mostly cause I'm an idiot


notapplicable


Mar 22, 2013, 8:31 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.

Why didn't you add the autoblock once you knew it was needed?
Mostly cause I'm an idiot

So perhaps the moral of the story is not "always use an autoblock", it's to use the right tool for the job at the right time.


Kartessa


Mar 22, 2013, 8:49 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.

Why didn't you add the autoblock once you knew it was needed?
Mostly cause I'm an idiot

So perhaps the moral of the story is not "always use an autoblock", it's to use the right tool for the job at the right time.

I *never* said "always"

Just put it out there for consideration when in a high-wind situation


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 22, 2013, 10:20 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Another alternative, especially useful if there's only a single rappel to the ground, is to tie gear to the two ends of the rope and lower it to the ground. The purpose of the gear is to keep the ends from blowing around.

r.c


Partner rgold


Mar 22, 2013, 10:26 AM
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It seems impossible to discuss any aspect of rappelling without eventually ending up with more or less the same argument about whether or not to use an autoblock.

If you are going to be rapping with the rope either saddlebaged or flaked over the rap extension, then although neatness helps, there is still a good chance you'll have to intervene to keep your coils from tangling. So it reasonable to expect you might want to shift your attention from rappelling to untangling, that you might even might find both hands useful for that task, and that this could happen several times during the descent. This is a situation in which it makes sense to install an autoblock, whether or not you usually do it.


majid_sabet


Mar 22, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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IMO, the best option to rap in high wind area is to rap with rope bag or feeding the rope as you rap off with having a knot at the end or attaching the end on your harness.

Lowering people in to unknown rock should be used as the last option since sharp rock edges,cracks.....can create hazard specially when person been lowered is inexperienced . Just imagine lowering a n00b on a single 60m rope and 46m down under, ropes gets stuck in some crack where noob can't climb up to free it nor climber on top can rap on a loaded rope.


Syd


Mar 22, 2013, 2:02 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

yep. It's the 0.328% of cases that justifies always using them. I reckon I've done about 1000 raps and only come close to killing myself once. That's 0.1%. An autoblock would have saved me. I was lucky.


billl7


Mar 22, 2013, 4:04 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
Another alternative, especially useful if there's only a single rappel to the ground, is to tie gear to the two ends of the rope and lower it to the ground. The purpose of the gear is to keep the ends from blowing around.
Reminds me of a friend's story after a trip to Cochise Dome in Cochise Stronghold (AZ). After finishing the climb, the winds were high and they decided to do the above. While the rack was being lowered, it got to swinging and landed off to the side well before the deck, stuck in a crack/horn/whatever of some sort. Folks on top were not aware of the full extent of the issue was my impression.

My friend rapped down and could not free the rack and could not get to the deck. He also could not communicate with those above due to the wind. So he ascended back up the rope and they used another team's rope to get down to free the rack. He swore he'd lower a person the next time.

Bill L


notapplicable


Mar 22, 2013, 6:51 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
rgold wrote:
Unless communication is a very serious issue, lowering the first person down is probably the best solution for high-wind rappels.

I've never liked the saddle-bag approach much; pulling a flaked rope out of slings can easily produce bad tangles unless the loops have been very carefully graduated. I think a better method is to extend the rappel device (there are other good reasons for doing this) and then drape the flaked rope over the extending sling.

The flaked loops shouldn't be too long; you should be able to reach down to the bottom of the lowest loop. This will allow you to pause and undo any loop-captures that are the prelude to tangling.

Any time you rappel carrying the ropes, I think it is good idea to have knots in the ends to keep you from rapping off them---even if you don't normally do this. Going off the endss seems a more likely accident when you can't look ahead and see if your ropes reach the next station or ledge.

^^^ this

And a simple add on. Keep seeing people "too cool" to use an autoblock setup... Because dealing with a snag or a knot with one hand is scary as phuk

It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

Wind once blew my ropes into a tree and tangled the fuck out of them. I didnt use an autoblock for that 1 in 300 chance of needing it, and... well.... let's just say I spent nearly 10min just shitting my pants.

Why didn't you add the autoblock once you knew it was needed?
Mostly cause I'm an idiot

So perhaps the moral of the story is not "always use an autoblock", it's to use the right tool for the job at the right time.

I *never* said "always"

Just put it out there for consideration when in a high-wind situation

Indeed. You did not. Point taken. High wind situations are one of the times when you can see trouble coming and an autoblock could be a prudent measure.


notapplicable


Mar 22, 2013, 7:25 PM
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Re: [Syd] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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Syd wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
It's not that autoblocks are uncool, it's that they are utterly superfluous in 99.672% of cases.

yep. It's the 0.328% of cases that justifies always using them. I reckon I've done about 1000 raps and only come close to killing myself once. That's 0.1%. An autoblock would have saved me. I was lucky.

I was riding down the road a few months ago and someone in a car up ahead threw a full bottle of something at a dude on the sidewalk. If he had been wearing a helmet, he probably would not have been hurt...


Syd


Mar 22, 2013, 7:45 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Rope management for high wind rappels? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:

I was riding down the road a few months ago and someone in a car up ahead threw a full bottle of something at a dude on the sidewalk. If he had been wearing a helmet, he probably would not have been hurt...

Let me guess ... you only climb free solo because ropes, helmets and pro are for wusses ?

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