Looks like fun route, by why are there so many loose rocks getting knocked off by experienced climbers on the most popular mutipitch route (heavily travelled) in the Canadian Rockies?

Try out some moderate routes in the German/Austrian Alps. I have climbed a couple pitches that seemed to be made entirely of loose rocks.

I use an autoblock (Alpine Up and the ATC Guide) however, I do think it is good to use these as if they were not autoblocking and to know how to use them correctly (setup, lower under tension, etc). As with any tool, use it correctly and it is fine, if not...

the NE face of haling is likely the most popular long route since its right outside canmore

the most popular multipitch in the Canadian Rockies

like i said ... go do it ... the climbing is easy

the NE face of haling is likely the most popular long route since its right outside canmore

Nowadays the route has a lot of fixed gear but it remains a serious undertaking with
loose rock at stances, dubious pitons and a propensity for attracting afternoon thunderstorms.
There have been numerous epics and even fatalities on this climb and it deserves respect from
inexperienced parties.

http://www.banffrock.ca/...namans/Ha%20Ling.pdf

Rock fall is still the
appropriate hazard on the route and must be respected whether below or above
other parties, which is common.

http://dowclimbing.com/HaLing.html

Curt remind me to never let you cause an epic that could have been avoided. On some climbs speed = safety.

Curt, given the rather large amount of literature that documents the long and rich heritage of alpine climbing, surely you don't actually believe that people doing such routes is a "remote and unlikely scenario", do you?

Jay made a blanket statement that there's no good reason to use autoblock mode. Within the context of short sunny rock climbs he is right on the mark. My point was that is not the only context within which people climb. On long alpine routes, especially with a team of three, autoblock belaying is the right technique. It allows the leader to belay up two seconds simultaneously, which saves a TON of time. While he is doing that he can go hands free to hydrate and snack, to be ready to blast up the next pitch the moment his partners arrive at the belay. He is not putting them at risk by doing that, he is reducing risk.

The time saved at the end of the day can very well mean the difference in having enough light to locate the correct descent gully or ridge (not always easy in high alpine terrain). It can also mean the difference between making it down or having to be exposed to frostbite risk during an icy bivouac. Add to that the reduced time the team is exposed to rock and ice fall, and it's an absolute no brainer conclusion that speed = safety on long alpine routes.

Curt you piped in with.......well nothing, just some smart ass blather that could only serve the purpose of putting someone else down to puff up your own sense of self importance. Now that truly is what RC.com is famous for.

Curt, given the rather large amount of literature that documents the long and rich heritage of alpine climbing, surely you don't actually believe that people doing such routes is a "remote and unlikely scenario", do you?

Curt you piped in with.......well nothing, just some smart ass blather that could only serve the purpose of putting someone else down to puff up your own sense of self importance. Now that truly is what RC.com is famous for.

And (again) I would never let anyone belay me who feels that belaying doesn't demand their full attention.

...Guide mode can't lock both strands simultaneously in all situations. There is still a risk there....

...Go ahead and pitch him another one sandstone, he's fun to watch at bat.

It is just one of the many risks (including weather, fatigue, rock fall, ice fall, nightfall, gear/food weight, avalanche, crevasse, etc.) that you may have to factor into just one alpine climb.

If I can save a significant amount of time by using autoblock (which is certainly true for a team of three), and by doing so reduce risk in several of the other categories mentioned above, am I at a higher or lower overall risk?

...again the RCers are out going off about things professionals and other people who climb ALOT do every day...

Of course, as "rgold" has pointed out numerous times, you can do something potentially unsafe for a very long period of time time and get away with it--so long as that practice is never severely tested.

Curt

...We aren't arguing against autoblock use....

...you seem to be getting lost in the argument...

..But I always keep my hands on the brake strands.

My original post was in response to a blanket statement that did just that. I didn't disagree with what Jay said, I just added that context is important because there is a context where autoblock is very valuable and very effective.

you should write to the AMGA/ACMG/IFMGA/etc, rather than rant on RC ... since this is the lives of innocent clients were talking about here

1) And do you really believe that any of those organizations would openly advocate belaying with an ATC auto-block without paying full attention to the belaying? I seriously doubt it.

2) Other than identifying eating, drinking, or otherwise multi-tasking while belaying as potentially unsafe, I really don't care that much. All I know is I won't do it--and neither will anyone I climb with.

Curt

Curt's response clearly wasn't addressing that portion of your statement, go back and look at what he bolded