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Saw this in the gunks last weekend.
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kobaz


Apr 9, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Saw this in the gunks last weekend.
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Disclaimer: No one was injured during the recreation of this anchor.

I saw this exact setup at the top of Kens Crack this past Saturday.




That's it. That's everything.. (except the two locking biners on the end of the red cord)

Entire anchor description:
One 5mm cord girth hitched *high* up on a tree.
One 7mm cord girth hitched to the blue cord.
Two locking biners on the end of the 7mm cord with the toprope running through.

No one was climbing on the rig while I walked by and I was thinking of dismantling the whole thing and throwing the rope down... I should have. Earlier in the day I saw a half dozen kids taking laps on the route.

I talked to one lady who seemed to be with that group and mentioned that her anchor was unsafe and inadequate. She gave me a blank stare and replied with "uh huh".

I talked to some other climbers in the area and they informed me that an amga guide had previously gave them the same spiel that I did to no avail.

I then proceeded to walk away to avoid having to be involved in any rescue.


To the fellow rc'ers... What would you have done?


Kartessa


Apr 9, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Re: [kobaz] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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kobaz wrote:
To the fellow rc'ers... What would you have done?


1 of 2 things happen in a situation like this:

1. I cut up the cord, bring it to the owner, offer my personal cord and show them how to set up properly, letting them keep it. I get tons of shit free/cheap so I'm not against the karma points of sharing the love.

or

2. If the person is a royal doucher, I cut up the cord, throw it down and say "You're an idiot, go home"


Option 3 would only be if I was a dude, I'd just go to the edge and piss down on their shitty anchor, their rope and the idiot who will climb on such a time bomb.


IsayAutumn


Apr 9, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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Why would you cut the cord?


Kartessa


Apr 9, 2013, 2:50 PM
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Re: [IsayAutumn] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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IsayAutumn wrote:
Why would you cut the cord?

The 5mm? I'd cut it into little pieces


IsayAutumn


Apr 9, 2013, 3:00 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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Right on

Kartessa wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
Why would you cut the cord?

The 5mm? I'd cut it into little pieces


Kartessa


Apr 9, 2013, 3:00 PM
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Re: [IsayAutumn] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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IsayAutumn wrote:
Right on

Kartessa wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
Why would you cut the cord?

The 5mm? I'd cut it into little pieces

Make bracelets to remind them not to do that again.


sween345


Apr 9, 2013, 3:17 PM
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Re: [kobaz] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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 kobaz,

Was the guide Joe Vitti? http://gunks.com/...y_Night_Li#Post67688 Perhaps that was the anchor he saw that inspired today's posting on Gunks.com
The red and blue knots are actually joined with a square knot. Still unacceptable, and a dangerous knot to use at all in any climbing application.
http://www.animatedknots.com/...ww.animatedknots.com Although the anchor you saw probably had continuous loops of chord not likely to capsize, joining them that way is also dangerous. ( As you noticed)


Syd


Apr 9, 2013, 5:23 PM
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Re: [kobaz] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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I would find the leader and point out the dangers. Imagine how you would feel if you didn't and there was a fatality.

In many situations it is difficult pointing out dangers when the climbers seem to be experienced. You know you are going to get an arrogant f.o. response. I once pointed out some belaying errors to a such a fellow. Minutes later he dropped his female climbing partner onto his own head.


shockabuku


Apr 9, 2013, 6:25 PM
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Re: [sween345] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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sween345 wrote:
kobaz,

Was the guide Joe Vitti? http://gunks.com/...y_Night_Li#Post67688 Perhaps that was the anchor he saw that inspired today's posting on Gunks.com
The red and blue knots are actually joined with a square knot. Still unacceptable, and a dangerous knot to use at all in any climbing application.
http://www.animatedknots.com/...ww.animatedknots.com Although the anchor you saw probably had continuous loops of chord not likely to capsize, joining them that way is also dangerous. ( As you noticed)

I think that's actually a strop bend, not a square knot. They have the same shape; it's basically a variation of a girth hitch. I don't believe that there is a significant risk of capsizing since all of the strands would be (nearly) loaded equally (based on the assumption that the red cord is tied in a loop).

I'd say the cord mechanics are okay but the sizing is a little small given that there is no redundancy.


gblauer
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Apr 9, 2013, 7:50 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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Unrelated to this anchor...there was already an accident at the Gunks this season. A belaying accident where the belayer could not hang on to her second. He fell 60 feet and sustained broken ribs, scalp laceration. He is expected to make a full recovery. Belayer sustained significant burns on hands.

We have a lot of gym climbers transitioning to the great outdoors. I suspect many of them are simply too inexperienced to climb safely.

It's often difficult to figure out when to intervene. I find myself leaving the area more often then offering any suggestions. That said, I have taken over belays, assisted with rescues, stuck climbers etc.


kobaz


Apr 9, 2013, 10:04 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
sween345 wrote:
kobaz,

Was the guide Joe Vitti? ...

I don't know who exactly it was. A group in the area mentioned that it was "a guide". I would say it's a damn shame that any climber wouldn't take the advice of someone who does this for a living (and is certified to do so).

sween345 wrote:
I'd say the cord mechanics are okay but the sizing is a little small given that there is no redundancy.

I've read research and drop tests where a cord/sling of sufficiently smaller size is girth hitched to a larger piece, it will cut when highly loaded. Square knot, strop, etc... one sling is essentially girth hitched to the other.

I would say that given there are a million and one other, better ways to rig this setup I would not be okay with the cord mechanics. And yeah the sizes are pretty bad to be the sole anchor.


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 9:35 AM
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Re: [kobaz] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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kobaz wrote:
Disclaimer: No one was injured during the recreation of this anchor.

I saw this exact setup at the top of Kens Crack this past Saturday.




That's it. That's everything.. (except the two locking biners on the end of the red cord)

Entire anchor description:
One 5mm cord girth hitched *high* up on a tree.
One 7mm cord girth hitched to the blue cord.
Two locking biners on the end of the 7mm cord with the toprope running through.

No one was climbing on the rig while I walked by and I was thinking of dismantling the whole thing and throwing the rope down... I should have. Earlier in the day I saw a half dozen kids taking laps on the route.

I talked to one lady who seemed to be with that group and mentioned that her anchor was unsafe and inadequate. She gave me a blank stare and replied with "uh huh".

I talked to some other climbers in the area and they informed me that an amga guide had previously gave them the same spiel that I did to no avail.

I then proceeded to walk away to avoid having to be involved in any rescue.


To the fellow rc'ers... What would you have done?

Minded my own business.

Curt


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 9:37 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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gblauer wrote:
Unrelated to this anchor...there was already an accident at the Gunks this season. A belaying accident where the belayer could not hang on to her second. He fell 60 feet and sustained broken ribs, scalp laceration. He is expected to make a full recovery. Belayer sustained significant burns on hands.

We have a lot of gym climbers transitioning to the great outdoors. I suspect many of them are simply too inexperienced to climb safely.

It's often difficult to figure out when to intervene. I find myself leaving the area more often then offering any suggestions. That said, I have taken over belays, assisted with rescues, stuck climbers etc.


how can you not hang on to your second? ... if you set it up right its basically top rope ....

Crazy


gblauer
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Apr 10, 2013, 10:05 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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From what I understand she was belaying her second without a re-direct (she was belaying from the top)


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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which is fine if you know what yr doing

i suspect she wasnt practiced in catching those types of falls where the ATC flips, or you need to set it up differently ...


JAB


Apr 10, 2013, 11:04 AM
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Re: [Syd] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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Syd wrote:
I would find the leader and point out the dangers. Imagine how you would feel if you didn't and there was a fatality.

In many situations it is difficult pointing out dangers when the climbers seem to be experienced. You know you are going to get an arrogant f.o. response. I once pointed out some belaying errors to a such a fellow. Minutes later he dropped his female climbing partner onto his own head.

At least he was a good spotter. Pirate


brooklynclimber


Apr 11, 2013, 7:09 PM
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Re: [JAB] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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Here's a newbie question, from someone starting to transition to outdoor climbing: what exactly was wrong with that setup?

1. The high girth hitch I assume was problematic because it creates greater torque on the tree
2. Only having a single rope is dumb because there is no backup if the only anchor fails.
3. Is there a problem extending the rope that way? More likely to fail at the knot?
4. Is there a problem attaching ropes of different diameters to each other?


wivanoff


Apr 11, 2013, 7:40 PM
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Re: [brooklynclimber] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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brooklynclimber wrote:
Here's a newbie question, from someone starting to transition to outdoor climbing: what exactly was wrong with that setup?

1. The high girth hitch I assume was problematic because it creates greater torque on the tree
2. Only having a single rope is dumb because there is no backup if the only anchor fails.
3. Is there a problem extending the rope that way? More likely to fail at the knot?
4. Is there a problem attaching ropes of different diameters to each other?

1 Yes. Stronger at the base instead of up high. Of course, with a BIG tree it doesn't matter so much. There are ways to arrange a girth hitch to lessen strain on the cord. And there are better ways than a girth hitch.
2 Yes
3 The Strop Hitch shown is not necessarily bad. But, the 5mm cord was too thin for my likes.
4 Not always. A 10mm and 8mm cord are different sizes, right? But, in this case, the 5mm cord was too thin.

Primarily: no back up & cord was too thin. IIRC, the tree at the top of Ken's Crack is fairly large. Still, larger cord and a master point over a padded edge would be a goodthing­®.


bearbreeder


Apr 11, 2013, 7:51 PM
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Re: [brooklynclimber] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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when you climb enough multi ... youll eventually belay off a large single tree with a single sling, often girth hitched

Wink


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 5:04 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
when you climb enough multi ... youll eventually belay off a large single tree with a single sling, often girth hitched

Wink

Yep. We probably all have. But, with a single loop of 5mm cord?


mojomonkey


Apr 12, 2013, 5:18 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
when you climb enough multi ... youll eventually belay off a large single tree with a single sling, often girth hitched

Wink

Which is irrelevant to this situation, where they (likely scrambled up to) set up a toprope on a short climb.


kobaz


Apr 12, 2013, 7:07 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
when you climb enough multi ... youll eventually belay off a large single tree with a single sling, often girth hitched

Wink

That's fine... I've done stuff like that, well usually not girth hitched if you can avoid it because it reduces strength... but tiny little cord for kids running laps? That's seriously disconcerting.


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 7:40 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:

Yep. We probably all have. But, with a single loop of 5mm cord?

mojomonkey wrote:
Which is irrelevant to this situation, where they (likely scrambled up to) set up a toprope on a short climb.

kobaz wrote:

That's fine... I've done stuff like that, well usually not girth hitched if you can avoid it because it reduces strength... but tiny little cord for kids running laps? That's seriously disconcerting.


if you noticed my reply was in response to ...

"1. The high girth hitch I assume was problematic because it creates greater torque on the tree
2. Only having a single rope is dumb because there is no backup if the only anchor fails. "


its not the girth hitch thats the problem in this case ... nor even a "single" rope ...

RC at is finest Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Apr 12, 2013, 7:41 PM)


kobaz


Apr 12, 2013, 10:27 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
wivanoff wrote:

Yep. We probably all have. But, with a single loop of 5mm cord?

mojomonkey wrote:
Which is irrelevant to this situation, where they (likely scrambled up to) set up a toprope on a short climb.

kobaz wrote:

That's fine... I've done stuff like that, well usually not girth hitched if you can avoid it because it reduces strength... but tiny little cord for kids running laps? That's seriously disconcerting.


if you noticed my reply was in response to ...

"1. The high girth hitch I assume was problematic because it creates greater torque on the tree
2. Only having a single rope is dumb because there is no backup if the only anchor fails. "


its not the girth hitch thats the problem in this case ... nor even a "single" rope ...

RC at is finest Wink

Heh.

The point is, there's a big difference between making a judgement call on a multipitch and saying that "this 7mm cordalette anchor on a 10 inch diameter tree on this 5.3 scramble pitch is sufficient" versus slinging a tree with tiny cord as your sole anchor for kids to toprope on all day.

A high girth hitch does put more torque on the tree, but in this case the tree was big enough to withstand being pulled from higher. The problem in this case however, was given the height of the girth hitch and size of the cord, there's a real risk of it slipping down the tree as it gets load cycled, possibly abrading and weakening this single point anchor to failure.


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Re: [kobaz] Saw this in the gunks last weekend. [In reply to]
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the problem is the cord thickness ... with a thick cord or rope, im not worried about the girth hitch one bit Tongue

as to the "placement" on the tree ... a basket hitch, etc ... could also "slip" down ... but realistically a nice round tree isnt going to cut a thicker sling/cord/rope ...

as to TR anchors ... lead anchors need to withstand MUCH higher forces .. so realistically if you arent going to put whats basically bodyweigh + the pulley effect ... you shouldnt be leading off it if you have any choice

Wink

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