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Libbster


Apr 12, 2013, 8:12 AM
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Which was is right?
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When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 8:31 AM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take "up rope"?


(This post was edited by wivanoff on Apr 12, 2013, 12:51 PM)


lena_chita
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Apr 12, 2013, 8:49 AM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?


How high up were you, when you fell? Did you hit anything on your "huge" fall? Were you in danger of hitting anything if the fall was only couple feet longer?

What's your definition of " extreme excess"? If he had a loop of slack laying on the ground, yes, that's extreme. If the rope went from his belay device and just drooped down slightly before going up to you, that should be O.K.


Obviously, when you are low on the route, especially with a light-weight belayer, excess slack could mean decking, so you should only have enough slack out in order for the climber to move unimpeded, and no more.

Higher up, two extra feet of slack don't mean much, unless there is a ledge or something, and anyway, if a climber is moving fast, taking those two feet of slack in may not been needed.

And, on many overhanging routes, those couple feet of slack, in combination with a soft catch, keep the climber from pendulum-swinging into the rock.

He may not be an optimal partner for you. Different people want different things. Maybe he is used to climbing with a 6ft tall guy who loves dynamic moves on overhanging rock and jumps regularly, so he got used to having that extra slack out. Maybe his other partner just enjoys bigger falls and always asks for a loop of slack to take a victory whip.

He should have listened to you if you ASKED HIM to keep you tighter/closer. If you asked him to keep you tighter, and he didn't, then you guys don't have much of a future together as climbing partners.


Kartessa


Apr 12, 2013, 10:19 AM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

I'm sorry... that doesnt quite look like a question.

What opinion do you want me to have?


Gmburns2000


Apr 12, 2013, 11:02 AM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take?

Just a silly clarification as I'm sure most knew what you meant:

Take = I'm going tolet go and put my weight on the rope, so pull the rope in tight

up rope (or some other variant) = remove the excess slack, but I am not going to weight the rope.


Gmburns2000


Apr 12, 2013, 11:06 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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But to stay on topic, Lena pretty much nailed it.


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 11:46 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:

Just a silly clarification as I'm sure most knew what you meant:

Take = I'm going tolet go and put my weight on the rope, so pull the rope in tight

up rope (or some other variant) = remove the excess slack, but I am not going to weight the rope.

I meant "Up Rope". But, since the OP took a 25 foot fall, "Take" might have been appropriate, too.


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 12:29 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:

I meant "Up Rope". But, since the OP took a 25 foot fall, "Take" might have been appropriate, too.


unless yr right at or below the bolt ... never ask for a take when sport climbing where the fall is clean ... just say "falling"

ive seen people get smashed into the wall because their belayer yarded in the slack and sat down into the catch because thats what you do when you give a "take" ... if they just fell they would have been fine

if you are above the bolt/good gear and its clean ... take the fall

its a very common beginner mistake ... part from not enough experience falling, part from a fear of falling ... "taking" can be more dangerous in these cases


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
wivanoff wrote:

I meant "Up Rope". But, since the OP took a 25 foot fall, "Take" might have been appropriate, too.

unless yr right at or below the bolt ... never ask for a take when sport climbing where the fall is clean ... just say "falling"

The OP did not say he was sport climbing...


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 12:55 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:

The OP did not say he was sport climbing...

if yr taking 25 foot whippers safely ... the fall is "safe" enough that the same applies

there are many times where yr safer taking the fall than asking for a "take" above bolts/gear


iknowfear


Apr 12, 2013, 3:11 PM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

if you want shorter falls, don't clip above your head.


notapplicable


Apr 12, 2013, 4:31 PM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Sounds to me like you have a "bump on a log" belayer.

While there is no standard amount of slack one should keep in the system at all times, it is often appropriate to take in rope during a climb. Sometimes I'll step towards the wall and toss out rope at the same time to give slack quickly. Sometimes I give more than was needed. In that case, sometimes I will step back or take in rope or both but if the climber is moving fast, I may just leave the slack in play. It's very situationally dependent.

I'll say this though. Belaying is something of an art and I don't regularly climb with folks who just stand there and feed out rope like an automaton.


csproul


Apr 12, 2013, 5:27 PM
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Re: [iknowfear] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

if you want shorter falls, don't clip above your head.
Wouldn't the fall be the same length whether you clip above your head or if you clip at the bolt? The you would end up lower clipping above your head, but the fall length would be the same.


dagibbs


Apr 12, 2013, 5:36 PM
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Re: [csproul] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
Libbster wrote:
When I was taught to lead belay, I would give the climber slack when they needed to clip and move up; but take out excess slack when needed.

But then I was climbing with one guy and he only fed me slack. Never took it out when I had clipped in and had a extreme excess. Thus when I fell I toook a huge whipper like 25 ft

I have always felt that my way was better but he insisted his was the proper way.

What do you think?

if you want shorter falls, don't clip above your head.
Wouldn't the fall be the same length whether you clip above your head or if you clip at the bolt? The you would end up lower clipping above your head, but the fall length would be the same.

Yes, the fall is the same length whether you clip above your head, or if you clip at your waist. (If you clip below your wait, though, the fall would be longer.) But, you will end up at a lower point on the cliff if you clip above your head.


6pacfershur


Apr 12, 2013, 6:08 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take "up rope"?

i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 6:51 PM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
wivanoff wrote:
The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take "up rope"?

i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....

59 here. What do the kids say now a days?


notapplicable


Apr 12, 2013, 7:07 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
wivanoff wrote:
The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take "up rope"?

i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....

59 here. What do the kids say now a days?

Based on what I hear at the crag...TAKE!


wivanoff


Apr 12, 2013, 7:33 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
wivanoff wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
wivanoff wrote:
The proper way is to do what the guy on the sharp end tells you to do. When you saw excess slack did you tell him to take "up rope"?

i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....

59 here. What do the kids say now a days?

Based on what I hear at the crag...TAKE!

/me looks at GMBurns2000....


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 7:45 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
/me looks at GMBurns2000....

you climb a few feet above a bolt where you can whip 25 feet ... shout TAKE ...

ill do what any decent belayer does and yard in the slack and sit down when i hear that ...

hell it can even be in a gym ...

lets see if busted ankles happen Tongue


Syd


Apr 13, 2013, 3:52 AM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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Definitely the "proper way" to do you in.


acorneau


Apr 16, 2013, 5:26 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....


"Up rope" is still a common command around here (Houston, central Texas, etc.)


dagibbs


Apr 16, 2013, 6:36 AM
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acorneau wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....


"Up rope" is still a common command around here (Houston, central Texas, etc.)

Still used around here, too. Ottawa, ON. Comes up most often on a follow of a wandering trad route, where the belayer (leader) often can't tell by feel how much rope is out due to rope drag.


wivanoff


Apr 16, 2013, 6:55 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
i havent heard a climber say "up rope" in years....most climbers i know under 50 y.o. dont even know what it means....

"Up rope" is still a common command around here (Houston, central Texas, etc.)

I still use "Up Rope", "Slack", "On belay", "Off Belay", etc. Really don't use "Take"...

I keep hearing people at the gym using "Take" not only at the end of the route when they want to be lowered but also mid-route when they want "Up Rope". Just another gym n00b bad habit that seems to be making it's way outside, I guess. I shouldn't have used it at all in this thread. Sorry about that.

Speaking of bad gym habits, every once in a while I've been inviting people I meet in the gym to climb outside with me. Try to instill a few good habits: show them how to set a TR anchor, how to rappel, have respect the land owners and neighbors, keep the noise down, always bring a plastic bag and carry out trash - stuff like that.

@GMBurns2000, I was just yanking your chain. We're good, right? Besides, it's fun to see how easy it is to make BB twitch ;)


jeepnphreak


Apr 16, 2013, 3:59 PM
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Re: [Libbster] Which was is right? [In reply to]
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For me, slack is just that give me more rope.

I use tension or up rope is I want the rope tighter or less slack.

I save TAKE for at the top of a rout when my belayer is going to take my body weight in preperation to lower off.


Eddie2170


Apr 17, 2013, 6:49 AM
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I'm 20 and I still use 'up rope'

For me and my partners at least, and we're all similar aged, 'up rope' is to reduce slack while 'take' is for taking in slack, because the climber is going to weight the rope, and 'falling' is used when about to fall or I know I'm about to fall to give my belayer a heads up

As far as the op's question it depends, I was always taught to take in if my climber was below his next draw with it already clipped and then begin to feed back out when they are even/past it, but with poor gear, ledges, etc. It could depend, I may want them to clear a ledge or bulge or I may want to make their fall shorter for the same reasons, it all depends on the situation. Also by having more rope out (or a dynamic catch/combination of both) would result in a softer catch, but potentially a longer fall.

But extreme excess and taking an unexpected large fall because of what the climber considers poor belay technique is definitely cause of concern, maybe they think its safe/correct but if I'm not completely confident I my belayer I'm not going to climb with them, 1 because of the safety, but 2 because I'm not going to climb hard if I'm scared the whole time

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