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Ruff_Dog


Apr 12, 2013, 4:15 PM
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Do the friction grooves on ATC/Tube-Style Devices Help...
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I was looking at someone's rapelling thread in the beginner section, and I was wondering if the friction grooves on an ATC-XP or Guide or Tube-Style device with grooves helped or hindered rapelling? I asked this question there, but didn't get an answer. Also, is there a massive difference in the feel, when rapelling, between an 8, a Rescue 8, and an ATC? Someone said that the ATC has more resistance, now someone is arguing it has less..so I'm looking for a straight answer. Thanks!


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 5:14 PM
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the straight answer is to go try it yourself and find out ... the intrawebs is notoriously unreliable as witnessed by the answers you got Wink

for the ATC guide grooved ends have more braking power than the non grooved end


jt512


Apr 12, 2013, 5:35 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
I was looking at someone's rapelling thread in the beginner section, and I was wondering if the friction grooves on an ATC-XP or Guide or Tube-Style device with grooves helped or hindered rapelling?

The grooves definitely add friction. Whether that's a help or a hindrance rappelling depends on your weight, your ropes, and the angle of the rappel.


csproul


Apr 12, 2013, 6:23 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
I was looking at someone's rapelling thread in the beginner section, and I was wondering if the friction grooves on an ATC-XP or Guide or Tube-Style device with grooves helped or hindered rapelling?

The grooves definitely add friction. Whether that's a help or a hindrance rappelling depends on your weight, your ropes, and the angle of the rappel.
This^^

It has been a long time since I used an 8 for anything, but my recollection is this; In order of increasing friction: ATC<ATC with grooves<8<rescue 8

Does increased friction help or hinder rappelling? That's for you to decide for your particular application.


Ruff_Dog


Apr 12, 2013, 7:05 PM
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Thank you so much! That helps a lot. And why do the Rescue 8's go faster than normal 8's?


JimTitt


Apr 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
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The grooves in an ATC give about 20% more friction over the non-grooved side, a normal 8 about 10% more. Rescue 8īs generally have extra `earsī to allow more turns and thus friction to be added. 8īs tend to twist the rope.


Ruff_Dog


Apr 13, 2013, 1:38 PM
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I see, that's great. Thanks for the info. Now, why do the 8's twist the rope? Is it because of the knot you use to tie in with?


acorneau


Apr 14, 2013, 5:20 AM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
I see, that's great. Thanks for the info. Now, why do the 8's twist the rope? Is it because of the knot you use to tie in with?

No, it's how the rope enters, twists around the spine, then exits the Figure-8 that twists the rope.

If you look at an ATC you can see how the rope enters the device, bends once around the carabiner, then exits with no real twisting of the rope while in the device.


Ruff_Dog


Apr 14, 2013, 5:52 AM
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acorneau wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
I see, that's great. Thanks for the info. Now, why do the 8's twist the rope? Is it because of the knot you use to tie in with?

No, it's how the rope enters, twists around the spine, then exits the Figure-8 that twists the rope.

If you look at an ATC you can see how the rope enters the device, bends once around the carabiner, then exits with no real twisting of the rope while in the device.

Yeah, I meant that, actually. I typed 'knot' and 'tie in with' and realized you don't tie in for a rappel... Or else you really wouldn't go anywhere. Good to know.


majid_sabet


Apr 14, 2013, 9:00 AM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
I was looking at someone's rapelling thread in the beginner section, and I was wondering if the friction grooves on an ATC-XP or Guide or Tube-Style device with grooves helped or hindered rapelling? I asked this question there, but didn't get an answer. Also, is there a massive difference in the feel, when rapelling, between an 8, a Rescue 8, and an ATC? Someone said that the ATC has more resistance, now someone is arguing it has less..so I'm looking for a straight answer. Thanks!


most people are not familiar nor have experience with all these rappelling devices and each are made to do a certain thing.

for example;

Tube type belay/rap devices are limited to how much friction they can produce in any settings This means no mater how you run the rope in tube type, the friction factor is controlled by rope size, your gripped , number of rope running in to device and the angle of rope entering and exiting the device. This is why tube type are bad choice for mix match rope sizes and heavy load (unless you re-rig addition loop or re-direct incoming rope in to another biner etc to create additional friction).

Try to rap 100m with double 11 mm rope on ATC and you are going nowhere (weight of the rope causes massive friction) and do the same with a 8.2mm wet rope and you can killed rapping so fast (with typical setup) and good lock trying to rap with ATC on a frozen rope at 15000 feet .

On the other hand 8 are universal and you can use them on any size rope and on any condition since you can create friction based on how rope is looped around the 8 but even 8 has its own limitations . 8 kinks rope especially on double rope rap setup but you can fix that with adding an sling biner clipped above the 8 to split the rope as its exiting the 8. 8 are awesome while rapping with heavy load and most experienced mountaineers and rescuers use this device as their number one choice among all personal rap devices.

The gri gri type rap/belay devices are worthless in rap setting since they are limited to rope size and weight of the load. These devices have tendency to keep locking the decent and you really need to use the release handle properly not to keep shock loading the anchor as you rapping down.

All other rap devices are designed for specific purpose like; rescue rack, cavers descending devices etc.

My number personal choice among all rap devices ( and I have probably every one them) would be an 8 cause its universal .Also, if you use the small hole on 8s and ran the rope through them in to a locking biner, they act exactly like any tube type belay devices so you got a tube type and an 8 in one package.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 14, 2013, 9:04 AM)


Ruff_Dog


Apr 14, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?


csproul


Apr 14, 2013, 12:46 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?


BTW, in case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody uses a figure 8 for rock climbing anymore. They are a terrible belay device compared to modern tube-style (ATC...) belay devices, no matter how you configure them. They really aren't all that great for your average climber's rappelling needs either. They can twist the rope, they provide too much friction for day-to-day rappelling, and you'd almost need to carry two devices (unless you're ok belaying with it too). There are some very good uses for an 8. Winter mountaineering, rescue applications, rappelling with a heavy load etc...but your average climber has very little use for a figure 8. I couldn't comment on your average sport rappeller, caver, or for canyoneering, but you'll see very few climbers (at least in the US) using them....for good reason. They suck for climbing.


billl7


Apr 14, 2013, 1:20 PM
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acorneau wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
why do the 8's twist the rope? Is it because of the knot you use to tie in with?

No, it's how the rope enters, twists around the spine, then exits the Figure-8 that twists the rope.

Yes - I think of it this way: Some configurations will have the rope traveling through hardware in a shape closer to a spiral than a circle. A spiraling rope tends to want to roll along its axis rather than purely flex as needed because rolling usually tends to take less 'work' than flexing. They are lazy just like most of us. ;-)

I've not used an 8 before. But I've used a munter to rappel. If an 8 can twist a rope like a munter, I'd prefer to look to other devices / setups to get the friction you want.

Bill L


mikeyboyaz


Apr 14, 2013, 1:57 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
Thank you so much! That helps a lot. And why do the Rescue 8's go faster than normal 8's?

The size of the opening where the rope enters and exits is much larger on a Rescue 8 and the bends which the rope must make are much longer and softer which allows the rope to move much easier and therefore faster.

They do typically have hooks which are used to slow down the movement and increase the friction significantly but that is a special application. I would not recommend using a rescue 8 for any rec or sport application ever.


(This post was edited by mikeyboyaz on Apr 14, 2013, 2:00 PM)


majid_sabet


Apr 14, 2013, 8:17 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?

The best 8 is the one that has a set of ears to one side
and here is the link

http://www.rescuesourcestore.com/...3dp84v5dihu71ddkwcp3

I had used the early version of this model and fall in love with it and since then, I had rap down 900 feet on a single 1200 feet rope along with so many other long distance rap and this is the king of all 8s. for $ 14 you can't go wrong.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 14, 2013, 8:18 PM)


majid_sabet


Apr 14, 2013, 8:21 PM
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csproul wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?


BTW, in case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody uses a figure 8 for rock climbing anymore. They are a terrible belay device compared to modern tube-style (ATC...) belay devices, no matter how you configure them. They really aren't all that great for your average climber's rappelling needs either. They can twist the rope, they provide too much friction for day-to-day rappelling, and you'd almost need to carry two devices (unless you're ok belaying with it too). There are some very good uses for an 8. Winter mountaineering, rescue applications, rappelling with a heavy load etc...but your average climber has very little use for a figure 8. I couldn't comment on your average sport rappeller, caver, or for canyoneering, but you'll see very few climbers (at least in the US) using them....for good reason. They suck for climbing.

may be not in the US but outside of north America 8 is still popular

Code



      
	  
	   
	  
    


JimTitt


Apr 14, 2013, 11:12 PM
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Maybe in Uzbekistan but in Europe 8īs are buried in the back of closets like everywhere else. Bet you guys still use donkeys as well.


Ruff_Dog


Apr 15, 2013, 3:18 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
csproul wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?


BTW, in case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody uses a figure 8 for rock climbing anymore. They are a terrible belay device compared to modern tube-style (ATC...) belay devices, no matter how you configure them. They really aren't all that great for your average climber's rappelling needs either. They can twist the rope, they provide too much friction for day-to-day rappelling, and you'd almost need to carry two devices (unless you're ok belaying with it too). There are some very good uses for an 8. Winter mountaineering, rescue applications, rappelling with a heavy load etc...but your average climber has very little use for a figure 8. I couldn't comment on your average sport rappeller, caver, or for canyoneering, but you'll see very few climbers (at least in the US) using them....for good reason. They suck for climbing.

may be not in the US but outside of north America 8 is still popular

Code

Yeah, I've heard in Europe the 8's are relatively popular.


Ruff_Dog


Apr 15, 2013, 3:19 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?

The best 8 is the one that has a set of ears to one side
and here is the link

http://www.rescuesourcestore.com/...3dp84v5dihu71ddkwcp3

I had used the early version of this model and fall in love with it and since then, I had rap down 900 feet on a single 1200 feet rope along with so many other long distance rap and this is the king of all 8s. for $ 14 you can't go wrong.

Thanks! Is it much smaller than the other? It says 'mini' and the other version on the site is almost $10 more.


wivanoff


Apr 15, 2013, 4:41 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
The grooves in an ATC give about 20% more friction over the non-grooved side, a normal 8 about 10% more. Rescue 8īs generally have extra `earsī to allow more turns and thus friction to be added. 8īs tend to twist the rope.

Jim, where does a carabiner brake fit in with all of this? Or are there too many variables to predict?

I have an 8 somewhere around here... used to use it with a Goldline BITD.


majid_sabet


Apr 15, 2013, 8:21 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Maybe in Uzbekistan but in Europe 8īs are buried in the back of closets like everywhere else. Bet you guys still use donkeys as well.

well,rest of the world aint Europe and few billion still live in Asia and I seen Europeans showing up on Camp 4 with 8 on their harnesses and may be these guys are still ridding horses .


majid_sabet


Apr 15, 2013, 8:23 AM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?

The best 8 is the one that has a set of ears to one side
and here is the link

http://www.rescuesourcestore.com/...3dp84v5dihu71ddkwcp3

I had used the early version of this model and fall in love with it and since then, I had rap down 900 feet on a single 1200 feet rope along with so many other long distance rap and this is the king of all 8s. for $ 14 you can't go wrong.

Thanks! Is it much smaller than the other? It says 'mini' and the other version on the site is almost $10 more.

I have mini and its made for climbers. very small and light weight and price is right. The larger one is good for heavy work, long raps etc.


majid_sabet


Apr 15, 2013, 10:51 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Maybe in Uzbekistan but in Europe 8īs are buried in the back of closets like everywhere else. Bet you guys still use donkeys as well.

This is the new donkey have in our backyard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ezXBEBE6U


Ruff_Dog


Apr 15, 2013, 11:40 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
Wow. Great post, to say the least. Long, informative. Right on. Do you have a specific band of Figure 8 you prefer, eg, Black Diamond, a Petzl-type one, etc? Or do you use a Rescue 8?

The best 8 is the one that has a set of ears to one side
and here is the link

http://www.rescuesourcestore.com/...3dp84v5dihu71ddkwcp3

I had used the early version of this model and fall in love with it and since then, I had rap down 900 feet on a single 1200 feet rope along with so many other long distance rap and this is the king of all 8s. for $ 14 you can't go wrong.

Thanks! Is it much smaller than the other? It says 'mini' and the other version on the site is almost $10 more.

I have mini and its made for climbers. very small and light weight and price is right. The larger one is good for heavy work, long raps etc.

Awesome! Thanks a ton. That's great. Now, how does the thing on the side work, because it only has one ear, compared to others having two?


Ruff_Dog


Apr 15, 2013, 11:40 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Maybe in Uzbekistan but in Europe 8īs are buried in the back of closets like everywhere else. Bet you guys still use donkeys as well.

This is the new donkey have in our backyard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ezXBEBE6U

Nice donkey. What'd you name it?

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