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Gdog42


Apr 18, 2013, 6:12 AM
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Dangerous belaying?
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I was at Devil's Lake, WI last fall and we came to a spot with a college group there also. They had a girl belaying in a very awkward way:

Her brake hand was upside-down above the belay device, parallel to her guide hand. This might have been ok with a self-locking device, but this was a conventional tube device. There was no way she would have been able to catch the guy if he fell (luckily he didn't)
When she took in slack she would pull up the rope with the brake hand, let go of it, and then move it back down to the previous unsafe position. The only time during the climb hat she actually locked the rope was at the end to lower him down.

I told her it was dangerous and said why, but she told me "it's ok; that's how I was taught!"

well ok then...

I didn't say anything else after that, but at least now she knows that if she ever does drop a climber she should consider checking her method.
I'm not blaming her btw; I'm blaming whoever taught her. That person obviously didn't care or didn't know themself how to do this safely.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing before? I don't usually point out to people things like this, but holy crap this was bad. I mean, this was pretty much what I was thinking when I saw her belaying like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs

(This post was edited by Gdog42 on Apr 20, 2013, 10:12 AM)


Kartessa


Apr 18, 2013, 6:19 AM
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Re: [Gdog42] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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Gdog42 wrote:
I was at Devil's Lake, WI last fall and we came to a spot with a college group there also. They had a girl belaying in a very awkward way:

Her brake hand was upside-down above the belay device, parallel to her guide hand. This might have been ok with a self-locking device, but this was a conventional tube device. There was no way she would have been able to catch the guy if he fell (luckily he didn't)
When she took in slack she would pull up the rope with the brake hand, let go of it, and then move it back down to the previous unsafe position. The only time during the climb hat she actually locked the rope was at the end to lower him down.

I told her it was dangerous and said why, but she told me "it's ok; that's how I was taught!"

well ok then...

I didn't say anything else after that, but at least now she knows that if she ever does drop a climber she should consider checking her method.
I'm not blaming her btw; I'm blaming whoever taught her. That person obviously didn't care or didn't know themself how to do this safely.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing before? I don't usually point out to people things like this, but holy crap this was bad. I mean, this was pretty much what I was thinking when I saw her belaying like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs

She was probably taught in a gym, on a grigri. Its just that dumbshits don't know that not all skills transfer seamlessly.


dagibbs


Apr 18, 2013, 6:24 AM
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I travel a lot for work, and when I arrive different places, I generally try to find a local climbing gym, and at least boulder -- but hope to hook up with someone local for an evening of climbing. But, I arrived at one gym, and saw that most people seemed to be belaying in this style, with ATCs or equivalent, and I decided that I would just boulder there. I didn't feel safe climbing with someone at that gym, even if they were "approved" as safe to belay. From watching people catch falls -- I think the idea is that when someone starts to fall, at that point you lock off. And, just hope you lock-off fast enough, or something. Maybe, at a gym where they can make sure there is lots of friction on the top-rope (two wraps around a large diameter cylinder, for example), people get away with this. But, on an outdoor TR, where that may not be the case? Ugh.


Libbster


Apr 18, 2013, 6:27 AM
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While you can do her method it is still inproper and she should not be letting go of the brake...ever. She was complacent. That attitude is born in the gym.


Kartessa


Apr 18, 2013, 6:42 AM
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Re: [Libbster] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
While you can do her method it is still inproper and she should not be letting go of the brake...ever. She was complacent. That attitude is born in the gym.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then gave up.

But as for gym attitudes of letting go. My favourite game in the gym is finding the dude (or girl) with their friend hanging, grigri cammed shut, hands in their pockets, and "slap the cam" on the grigri.

The trick to be avoid being a totall asshole is to come up behind them, and grab the brake end of the rope before doing the slap. This way, they won't deck, should the grigri not engage (a 0.0001% chance of happening). The sneaky approach is awesome too, because it really makes the idiot belayer shit their pants, and hopefully learn a lesson.


shimanilami


Apr 18, 2013, 7:51 AM
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Well played, sir.


amarius


Apr 18, 2013, 8:15 AM
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It is a little challenging to understand your narration. It seems to me that you were describing "pinch" method of belaying - "hands on rope palms up and pinkies toward the belay device, draw in rope; slide the feeding hand up and pinch both ropes; and recover the brake hand to the starting position" ( From here, and video ).
I also sounds as if her interpretation of that method was less than confidence inspiring


iknowfear


Apr 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
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Re: [Gdog42] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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Gdog42 wrote:
I was at Devil's Lake, WI last fall and we came to a spot with a college group there also. They had a girl belaying in a very awkward way:

Her brake hand was upside-down above the belay device, parallel to her guide hand. This might have been ok with a self-locking device, but this was a conventional tube device. There was no way she would have been able to catch the guy if he fell (luckily he didn't)
When she took in slack she would pull up the rope with the brake hand, let go of it, and then move it back down to the previous unsafe position. The only time during the climb hat she actually locked the rope was at the end to lower him down.

I told her it was dangerous and said why, but she told me "it's ok; that's how I was taught!"

well ok then...

I didn't say anything else after that, but at least now she knows that if she ever does drop a climber she should consider checking her method.
I'm not blaming her btw; I'm blaming whoever taught her. That person obviously didn't care or didn't know themself how to do this safely.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing before? I don't usually point out to people things like this, but holy crap this was bad. I mean, this was pretty much what I was thinking when I saw her belaying like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs

maybe she was taught with a munter, and did not notice that tubers don't work that way... (I see that more often than I like!)


Gdog42


Apr 18, 2013, 11:37 AM
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Re: [amarius] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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amarius wrote:
"hands on rope palms up and pinkies toward the belay device

That sounds like it. Her brake/bottom hand was up above the device next to her guide/top hand in that position you just described (upright) So if she did have to lock off to catch a fall her brake hand would have turned backwards, making the climber very awkward to hold.
To add another detail I forgot to mention, the thumb on her brake hand hasn't even curled around the rope! Shocked
She managed to lower him from that position anyway.

I'm heading to the gym later today. If I remember I'll take my camera and get a friend to take a picture of me on belay as she was so I can show you guys.


petsfed


Apr 18, 2013, 1:03 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
She was probably taught in a gym, on a grigri, by an idiot. Its just that dumbshits don't know that not all skills transfer seamlessly.

Fixed that for you.

That's a shitty approach to using a gri-gri too.


Kartessa


Apr 18, 2013, 1:09 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
She was probably taught in a gym, on a grigri, by an idiot. Its just that dumbshits don't know that not all skills transfer seamlessly.

Fixed that for you.

That's a shitty approach to using a gri-gri too.

Shitty, but surviveable


Tfinney110


Apr 18, 2013, 1:13 PM
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Kartessa wrote:
Libbster wrote:
While you can do her method it is still inproper and she should not be letting go of the brake...ever. She was complacent. That attitude is born in the gym.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then gave up.

But as for gym attitudes of letting go. My favourite game in the gym is finding the dude (or girl) with their friend hanging, grigri cammed shut, hands in their pockets, and "slap the cam" on the grigri.

The trick to be avoid being a totall asshole is to come up behind them, and grab the brake end of the rope before doing the slap. This way, they won't deck, should the grigri not engage (a 0.0001% chance of happening). The sneaky approach is awesome too, because it really makes the idiot belayer shit their pants, and hopefully learn a lesson.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then I gave up. *FACEPALM*


Kartessa


Apr 18, 2013, 1:25 PM
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Tfinney110 wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
Libbster wrote:
While you can do her method it is still inproper and she should not be letting go of the brake...ever. She was complacent. That attitude is born in the gym.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then gave up.

But as for gym attitudes of letting go. My favourite game in the gym is finding the dude (or girl) with their friend hanging, grigri cammed shut, hands in their pockets, and "slap the cam" on the grigri.

The trick to be avoid being a totall asshole is to come up behind them, and grab the brake end of the rope before doing the slap. This way, they won't deck, should the grigri not engage (a 0.0001% chance of happening). The sneaky approach is awesome too, because it really makes the idiot belayer shit their pants, and hopefully learn a lesson.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then I gave up. *FACEPALM*

Difference is: I'm high... he's not.


Syd


Apr 18, 2013, 2:51 PM
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I think the problem is that at many gyms, including my local gym, the staff are incompetent. Gym staff chat to each other behind the counter rather than wandering about watching belayers and climbers. (ClimbFit is an exception - the staff are great). Staff allow people to develop bad habits, even if they don't teach them.

The most common error is the belayer allowing the rope to run freely when lowering. The top friction pulley allows belayers to get away with murder.


redlude97


Apr 18, 2013, 3:06 PM
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Re: [Gdog42] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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Gdog42 wrote:
amarius wrote:
"hands on rope palms up and pinkies toward the belay device

That sounds like it. Her brake/bottom hand was up above the device next to her guide/top hand in that position you just described (upright) So if she did have to lock off to catch a fall her brake hand would have turned backwards, making the climber very awkward to hold.
To add another detail I forgot to mention, the thumb on her brake hand hasn't even curled around the rope! Shocked
She managed to lower him from that position anyway.

I'm heading to the gym later today. If I remember I'll take my camera and get a friend to take a picture of me on belay as she was so I can show you guys.
Pinch and slide is perfectly acceptable if done correctly, nothing wrong with the brake hand in either orientation. Sounds like you're the noob.


theguy


Apr 18, 2013, 3:52 PM
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You could have said you agreed with the OP in this thread instead of starting a new one.

In case you care, JT512 prefers the approach of your girl (presuming it's done correctly of course) for sport-climbing with a gri-gri since he finds there's less risk of being short-roped on long clips.

Guessing that's not much of an issue for Devil's Lake though; sounds like a case of someone inappropriately transferring a technique to a different context, as others have suggested. Was her partner top-roping or trad-leading, and what was belay device? I'm guessing not sport-leading at Devil's Lake.

FWIW I was taught the thumbs-up method by a guide service for top-roping with Gri-Gri outdoors.


moose_droppings


Apr 18, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Dangerous belaying... [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Pinch and slide is perfectly acceptable if done correctly, nothing wrong with the brake hand in either orientation.

This is correct and there have been plenty of threads on this. When belaying a climber above you with your brake hand upside down above the device puts your hand in a better position of strength when pulled below the device for braking IMO.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 18, 2013, 5:06 PM)


Gdog42


Apr 18, 2013, 7:33 PM
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theguy wrote:
You could have said you agreed with the OP in this thread instead of starting a new one.

In case you care, JT512 prefers the approach of your girl (presuming it's done correctly of course) for sport-climbing with a gri-gri since he finds there's less risk of being short-roped on long clips.

Guessing that's not much of an issue for Devil's Lake though; sounds like a case of someone inappropriately transferring a technique to a different context, as others have suggested. Was her partner top-roping or trad-leading, and what was belay device? I'm guessing not sport-leading at Devil's Lake.

FWIW I was taught the thumbs-up method by a guide service for top-roping with Gri-Gri outdoors.

Yes, it probably would have been acceptable for a lead climb, and if she was using a self-locking device.
However, this was not the case. Her partner was top-roping, and she was using an ATC belay device.

She was sat down and was positioned exactly like this:

err... ok I'm new on this forum. Could someone please tell me how I upload an image in a post? I have it, I just don't know how to do this. (I tried placing the tags around the URL but it didn't work.)

(This post was edited by Gdog42 on Apr 18, 2013, 7:33 PM)


qwert


Apr 19, 2013, 2:16 AM
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iknowfear wrote:
Gdog42 wrote:

maybe she was taught with a munter, and did not notice that tubers don't work that way... (I see that more often than I like!)
From what it sounds like (though it sounds rather hard to understand) that might be the case, but it was my understanding that the munter is rather uncommon in the USA?

fun fact: The Austrian alpine clubs official way of teaching the munter hitch is to operate it with the brake hand below the device (just like one would do with an ATC), in order to avoid the scenario described above.

qwert


qwert


Apr 19, 2013, 2:20 AM
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Gdog42 wrote:

She was sat down and was positioned exactly like this:

err... ok I'm new on this forum. Could someone please tell me how I upload an image in a post? I have it, I just don't know how to do this. (I tried placing the [IMAGE] tags around the URL but it didn't work.)
If you have uploaded the image somewhere (flickr, some other image host, fbook etc) you need to get the images full adress (right click on the image, "copy image adress" or something) and place it in the tags like so:

Code
[image]http://somesite.tld/images/somerandompath/maybesomethingelse/belay.jpg[/image]

Or just post the url, and someone might embed it for you.

Or just attach it to your post and host the image on this site (the attachment box below your text box).

qwert


iknowfear


Apr 19, 2013, 3:48 AM
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qwert wrote:
iknowfear wrote:
Gdog42 wrote:

maybe she was taught with a munter, and did not notice that tubers don't work that way... (I see that more often than I like!)
From what it sounds like (though it sounds rather hard to understand) that might be the case, but it was my understanding that the munter is rather uncommon in the USA?

fun fact: The Austrian alpine clubs official way of teaching the munter hitch is to operate it with the brake hand below the device (just like one would do with an ATC), in order to avoid the scenario described above.

qwert

the swiss alpine club also changed to the "E-" configuration. However, I recently saw someone (that should have known better...) still teaching the paralell strand method...


Gdog42


Apr 19, 2013, 4:38 AM
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qwert wrote:
If you have uploaded the image somewhere (flickr, some other image host, fbook etc) you need to get the images full adress (right click on the image, "copy image adress" or something) and place it in the tags like so:

Code
[image]http://somesite.tld/images/somerandompath/maybesomethingelse/belay.jpg[/image]

Or just post the url, and someone might embed it for you.

Or just attach it to your post and host the image on this site (the attachment box below your text box).

qwert

This is what I ried doing but I didn't see an image in the Preview Post.
I uploaded the image to PicasaWeb. I also tried doing it directly from the SD card by opening the file with IE, but I still didn't see anything.


qwert


Apr 19, 2013, 5:38 AM
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Gdog42 wrote:
qwert wrote:
If you have uploaded the image somewhere (flickr, some other image host, fbook etc) you need to get the images full adress (right click on the image, "copy image adress" or something) and place it in the tags like so:

Code
[image]http://somesite.tld/images/somerandompath/maybesomethingelse/belay.jpg[/image]

Or just post the url, and someone might embed it for you.

Or just attach it to your post and host the image on this site (the attachment box below your text box).

qwert

This is what I ried doing but I didn't see an image in the Preview Post.
I uploaded the image to PicasaWeb. I also tried doing it directly from the SD card by opening the file with IE, but I still didn't see anything.
What is the PicasaWeb url?

qwert


amarius


Apr 19, 2013, 5:54 AM
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Check permissions - they should be Public or Limited, Public is preferred.
Public - anyone can view it
Limited - anyone with URL can view it.


curt


Apr 19, 2013, 10:11 AM
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Gdog42 wrote:
theguy wrote:
You could have said you agreed with the OP in this thread instead of starting a new one.

In case you care, JT512 prefers the approach of your girl (presuming it's done correctly of course) for sport-climbing with a gri-gri since he finds there's less risk of being short-roped on long clips.

Guessing that's not much of an issue for Devil's Lake though; sounds like a case of someone inappropriately transferring a technique to a different context, as others have suggested. Was her partner top-roping or trad-leading, and what was belay device? I'm guessing not sport-leading at Devil's Lake.

FWIW I was taught the thumbs-up method by a guide service for top-roping with Gri-Gri outdoors.

Yes, it probably would have been acceptable for a lead climb, and if she was using a self-locking device.
However, this was not the case. Her partner was top-roping, and she was using an ATC belay device.

She was sat down and was positioned exactly like this:

err... ok I'm new on this forum. Could someone please tell me how I upload an image in a post? I have it, I just don't know how to do this. (I tried placing the [IMAGE] tags around the URL but it didn't work.)

If the picture is on your computer, the easiest thing to do is:

1) Where it says Attachment: click the "Choose file" button
2) Select the pic
3) Click on "Upload attachment"
4) Use the inline command [inline filename] to make the pic appear in your post.

Curt

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