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anonymousCoward


May 8, 2013, 6:54 PM
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Dropped - blame gear or partner?
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So I got dropped 60 feet. Who or what should I blame.

The basic details were:

I was leading a sport route and fell when a foothold broke.

I fell right at a bolt.

My partner was using a grigri that was perhaps 10 years old.

The rope was a brand new Beal 10.2 with a dry coat.

My partner did manage to grab the rope just before I hit the ground so the impact was slightly less than it could have been - no broken bones, but major knee damage.

My partner claims that he wasnt blocking the grigri open.

One more note on the rope, it was very slippery and I found it difficult to hold onto when rapping on earlier routes.
My partner had caught a fall on a previous route with the same situation.

Should I:
1. blame my partner and quit climbing with him.
2. blame the combination of the worn out grigri and brand new slippery rope.
3. give my partner any credit for catching me.


notapplicable


May 8, 2013, 7:10 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
So I got dropped 60 feet. Who or what should I blame.

The basic details were:

I was leading a sport route and fell when a foothold broke.

I fell right at a bolt.

My partner was using a grigri that was perhaps 10 years old.

The rope was a brand new Beal 10.2 with a dry coat.

My partner did manage to grab the rope just before I hit the ground so the impact was slightly less than it could have been - no broken bones, but major knee damage.

My partner claims that he wasnt blocking the grigri open.

One more note on the rope, it was very slippery and I found it difficult to hold onto when rapping on earlier routes.
My partner had caught a fall on a previous route with the same situation.

Should I:
1. blame my partner and quit climbing with him.
2. blame the combination of the worn out grigri and brand new slippery rope.
3. give my partner any credit for catching me.

Your partner is to blame 100%. Whether or not to stop climbing with him is another question but I would have serious doubts about his abilities. He was doing something seriously wrong for that much rope to run before he even began arresting the fall.


anonymousCoward


May 8, 2013, 7:17 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Your partner is to blame 100%.

Thanks, I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but havent succeded at that.


jt512


May 8, 2013, 7:55 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
So I got dropped 60 feet. Who or what should I blame.

The basic details were:

I was leading a sport route and fell when a foothold broke.

I fell right at a bolt.

My partner was using a grigri that was perhaps 10 years old.

The rope was a brand new Beal 10.2 with a dry coat..

This isn't an answer on who or what to blame, but I have belayed using the combination of a Grigri I and a Beal 10.2 thousands of times, and can I tell you with certainty, that, although I don't know why, it is a very tricky combination. The slipperiness of that specific rope in that belay device is much greater than other ropes of the same or smaller diameter, including smaller-diameter ropes by the same manufacturer!


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 9, 2013, 3:57 PM)


shockabuku


May 8, 2013, 8:15 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Had he belayed with that rope and a Gri-gri before?

Sounds like he might not have had his brake hand on the rope. I guess I'd be thankful he caught me but would be fairly averse to climbing with him again. I might take that rope and the Gri-gri and go out and try to repeat the incident (with a dummy weight) and see for myself how it feels.


bearbreeder


May 8, 2013, 8:53 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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theres no excuse for dropping someone 60 feet when they are right at a bolt ...

PERIOD ...

its that simple ...

how experienced was yr partner?


Kartessa


May 8, 2013, 10:50 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Hrm... let's see...

You were at the bolt, but hadn't clipped it yet... if the bolts were a little on the stretchy side (since you were 60ft up and all...), you could get up to 15ft between bolts.

Now add any slack that was hanging out, was your partner trying to feet you rope to clip? Without the extra arm length, you can still be looking at 5 ft (1/12th of what's already out), that brings us to a 35ft fall before adding in the rope slipping through the grigri. If you were at the bolt, they may have had their brake hand a few feet down the line from the grigri to facilitate the impending clip.

Now factor in rope stretch, the belayer travelling upward...

I'm not saying its right to be having a near-deck experience, but even with a belayer doing what many of us consider to be "right", 60ft can happen easily.

Really, I'd say it's the climber's fault as much as the belayer's. You knew the grigri was old and worn and you should know your belayer's experience and competence level. While you do rely on your belayer to hold your life in their hands, it's your decision and really, you sink or swim as a team, thats why they're called a "partner"


shotwell


May 8, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
Hrm... let's see...

You were at the bolt, but hadn't clipped it yet... if the bolts were a little on the stretchy side (since you were 60ft up and all...), you could get up to 15ft between bolts.

Now add any slack that was hanging out, was your partner trying to feet you rope to clip? Without the extra arm length, you can still be looking at 5 ft (1/12th of what's already out), that brings us to a 35ft fall before adding in the rope slipping through the grigri. If you were at the bolt, they may have had their brake hand a few feet down the line from the grigri to facilitate the impending clip.

Now factor in rope stretch, the belayer travelling upward...

I'm not saying its right to be having a near-deck experience, but even with a belayer doing what many of us consider to be "right", 60ft can happen easily.

Really, I'd say it's the climber's fault as much as the belayer's. You knew the grigri was old and worn and you should know your belayer's experience and competence level. While you do rely on your belayer to hold your life in their hands, it's your decision and really, you sink or swim as a team, thats why they're called a "partner"

I came pretty close to the deck on a sport lead once in a similar situation. I was at a bolt, out of sight and ready to clip, reached down to pull rope and busted a foot hold. My partner was feeding slack as I broke the foot. She was using a GriGri with the 'old' method of feeding. I stopped about 4 feet from the deck from about 50 feet up. We were both clear that the fall should have stopped me about 20 feet up, but she reacted as quickly as she could to get back to the brake strand. We were both experienced sport climbers that fell frequently at the time.

We played around with the scenario back at home and came to the conclusion that the 'new' method made it easier to catch a fall during the process of throwing slack. YMMV.


olderic


May 9, 2013, 6:29 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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"right at a bolt" is pretty ambigious and most of the initial descrition is lacking in detail. But there likely are some issues with the rope/device compatibility.

Bottom line go with your gut - don't go off crying to anoymous strangers to justify a decision you already have made or worse make your decisions for you. Man up.


granite_grrl


May 9, 2013, 8:48 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Blame all around!

Grigris wear, we have the fat rope grigri and a new grigri. There are ropes I won't use with the fat rope grigri because of the slippage. This is something that both you and your partner need to be aware about and should think about before heading up a climb.

Chances are thet Grigri was worn, belayer didn't expect it and didn't take control of the device as well as the should have (ie - treating it like a tube style device) and there was more slippage than there shoul have been.

Beals always seem thinner than other brands in the same diameter. They are also strechy (which will make your fall further again).

You need to know the gear you're climbing on and know it's limitations. In the end you're responsible for yourself and you'r just as much to blame as anything else.


TradEddie


May 9, 2013, 8:56 AM
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Re: [shotwell] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
She was using a GriGri with the 'old' method of feeding. I stopped about 4 feet from the deck from about 50 feet up. We were both clear that the fall should have stopped me about 20 feet up, but she reacted as quickly as she could to get back to the brake strand. We were both experienced sport climbers that fell frequently at the time.

We played around with the scenario back at home and came to the conclusion that the 'new' method made it easier to catch a fall during the process of throwing slack. YMMV.

Sounds exactly like the OP description, I'd bet the belayer was using some variation of the "left palm on cam, pinky around the brake end for show" technique. When the rope is weighted, the grigri lifts up and the cam presses against the belayer's palm. The belayer doesn't have to be pressing down, the grigri is being pulled up. 99 times out of 100 this works fine, but 1 in 100 is not good enough odds. I'd prefer to see the completely "hands off" belaying technique than this, but it's all too common.

TE


lena_chita
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May 9, 2013, 8:58 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
Should I:
1. blame my partner and quit climbing with him.

Yes, your belayer is to blame for this. whether you quit climbing with him depends on what actions he/she is taking now to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

anonymousCoward wrote:
2. blame the combination of the worn out grigri and brand new slippery rope.

Yes, to some extent, as much as inanimate objects could be blamed. The rope diameter was correct for the device, but it is new and slippery. Gri-gri was old, but unless you had experience with slippage in this gri-gri before, or unless there was obvious worn-out groove that you neglected, the combinations wasn't immediately screaming "danger". Hindsight is always 20-20.

I too have found the Beal rope to be more 'slippery' than other ropes, and it feels skinnier than most 9.5-9.8 ropes to me. BUT, I have never had it slip through the gri-gri, nevertheless.


anonymousCoward wrote:
3. give my partner any credit for catching me.

Yes. He/she reacted late, but your belayer DID react, and you lived to complain another day.


shotwell


May 9, 2013, 8:58 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
shotwell wrote:
She was using a GriGri with the 'old' method of feeding. I stopped about 4 feet from the deck from about 50 feet up. We were both clear that the fall should have stopped me about 20 feet up, but she reacted as quickly as she could to get back to the brake strand. We were both experienced sport climbers that fell frequently at the time.

We played around with the scenario back at home and came to the conclusion that the 'new' method made it easier to catch a fall during the process of throwing slack. YMMV.

Sounds exactly like the OP description, I'd bet the belayer was using some variation of the "left palm on cam, pinky around the brake end for show" technique. When the rope is weighted, the grigri lifts up and the cam presses against the belayer's palm. The belayer doesn't have to be pressing down, the grigri is being pulled up. 99 times out of 100 this works fine, but 1 in 100 is not good enough odds. I'd prefer to see the completely "hands off" belaying technique than this, but it's all too common.

TE

Wrong. I said she used the 'old' method and I meant she used the 'old' method. This is right hand cupping the tip of the device and sliding back to the rope.


majid_sabet


May 9, 2013, 9:09 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
So I got dropped 60 feet. Who or what should I blame.

The basic details were:

I was leading a sport route and fell when a foothold broke.

I fell right at a bolt.

My partner was using a grigri that was perhaps 10 years old.

The rope was a brand new Beal 10.2 with a dry coat.

My partner did manage to grab the rope just before I hit the ground so the impact was slightly less than it could have been - no broken bones, but major knee damage.

My partner claims that he wasnt blocking the grigri open.

One more note on the rope, it was very slippery and I found it difficult to hold onto when rapping on earlier routes.
My partner had caught a fall on a previous route with the same situation.

Should I:
1. blame my partner and quit climbing with him.
2. blame the combination of the worn out grigri and brand new slippery rope.
3. give my partner any credit for catching me.

stop been a pussy crying over some chicken shit fall and tell us how far were you out pass the last bolt ?

if you were 30 feet out then you deserve to take 60 footer


quasenada


May 9, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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The best way to start is to blame yourself, even if the blame is that you chose an inexperienced belayer.
It is YOUR responsibility to choose someone who can catch you. Otherwise, your flight was unavoidable (gear issues)
Blaming others usually does not give you much room to improve on mistakes, and in climbing usually the price is high when sh!t hits the fan (shtf)


milesenoell


May 9, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Re: [quasenada] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Rope burns on belay hand(s)=your fault (for picking an inexperienced belayer)

no rope burns=their fault (lack of experience is no excuse for not putting all you have into stopping the fall)


notapplicable


May 9, 2013, 1:04 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
Hrm... let's see...

You were at the bolt, but hadn't clipped it yet... if the bolts were a little on the stretchy side (since you were 60ft up and all...), you could get up to 15ft between bolts.

Now add any slack that was hanging out, was your partner trying to feet you rope to clip? Without the extra arm length, you can still be looking at 5 ft (1/12th of what's already out), that brings us to a 35ft fall before adding in the rope slipping through the grigri. If you were at the bolt, they may have had their brake hand a few feet down the line from the grigri to facilitate the impending clip.

Now factor in rope stretch, the belayer travelling upward...

I'm not saying its right to be having a near-deck experience, but even with a belayer doing what many of us consider to be "right", 60ft can happen easily.

Really, I'd say it's the climber's fault as much as the belayer's. You knew the grigri was old and worn and you should know your belayer's experience and competence level. While you do rely on your belayer to hold your life in their hands, it's your decision and really, you sink or swim as a team, thats why they're called a "partner"

It would be nice for OP to clarify but the phrase "I fell right at a bolt." leads me to believe that the climber was at an already clipped bolt. Meaning the fall should have only been a body length or so with rope stretch.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on May 9, 2013, 1:05 PM)


Syd


May 9, 2013, 2:09 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:

Your partner is to blame 100%. Whether or not to stop climbing with him is another question but I would have serious doubts about his abilities. He was doing something seriously wrong for that much rope to run before he even began arresting the fall.

I agree. If your partner was belaying correctly it would not have happened, despite the slippery rope. I'm amazed how you were caught. A tangle perhaps ? Were there massive burns on your partner's hands ?


Kartessa


May 9, 2013, 9:04 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
Hrm... let's see...

You were at the bolt, but hadn't clipped it yet... if the bolts were a little on the stretchy side (since you were 60ft up and all...), you could get up to 15ft between bolts.

Now add any slack that was hanging out, was your partner trying to feet you rope to clip? Without the extra arm length, you can still be looking at 5 ft (1/12th of what's already out), that brings us to a 35ft fall before adding in the rope slipping through the grigri. If you were at the bolt, they may have had their brake hand a few feet down the line from the grigri to facilitate the impending clip.

Now factor in rope stretch, the belayer travelling upward...

I'm not saying its right to be having a near-deck experience, but even with a belayer doing what many of us consider to be "right", 60ft can happen easily.

Really, I'd say it's the climber's fault as much as the belayer's. You knew the grigri was old and worn and you should know your belayer's experience and competence level. While you do rely on your belayer to hold your life in their hands, it's your decision and really, you sink or swim as a team, thats why they're called a "partner"

It would be nice for OP to clarify but the phrase "I fell right at a bolt." leads me to believe that the climber was at an already clipped bolt. Meaning the fall should have only been a body length or so with rope stretch.

To me "right at the a bolt" would say they got there but didnt clip it, had they clipped it, it would be "right after a bolt"... either way though, all parties are to blame.

You dont tie in with someone you're not 100% sure will catch you.

Groundfalls are like herpes man.


camhead


May 10, 2013, 5:19 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Question for the OP:

Are there rope burns on your belayer's climber-side (NOT brake) hand? This is usually the left hand for right handed people. If there are rope burns on this hand, definitely don't climb with this person again. If there are not, maybe don't climb with him again.


anonymousCoward


May 13, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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To clarify this a bit, I was right at a bolt and had clipped in. I shouldn't have fallen more than a few feet plus the rope stretch.

My partner had a severe rope burn on his hand.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I'm still not sure what to make of this situation.


bearbreeder


May 14, 2013, 1:21 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
To clarify this a bit, I was right at a bolt and had clipped in. I shouldn't have fallen more than a few feet plus the rope stretch.

My partner had a severe rope burn on his hand.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I'm still not sure what to make of this situation.

you were clipped into a bolt right by you, and you got dropped ... your belayer has burns, on a gri gri no less

even with a total gri gri failure, if yr belayer had his/her hand on the brake you would have been caught ... its not a big whipper or a fall off the belay were talking about here

theres no excuse for dropping someone in such a situation

its that simple Wink


mikebee


May 14, 2013, 4:16 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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Was the grigri threaded back to front?

That seems to be the only other option I can think of.

edit: I just reread the whole thread, to me a grigri threaded the wrong way definitely sounds like the most plausible option.
Your partner had caught a fall earlier that day with the same grigri/rope combo, so he knows how to catch.
The fact he has rope burns shows he was trying to grab the rope but that it was hard to stop.

You may never know (unless you took photos), but if this was the case, it's your fault for setting off without doing a proper check.


(This post was edited by mikebee on May 14, 2013, 4:24 AM)


camhead


May 14, 2013, 4:37 AM
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Re: [mikebee] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
Was the grigri threaded back to front?

That seems to be the only other option I can think of.

edit: I just reread the whole thread, to me a grigri threaded the wrong way definitely sounds like the most plausible option.
Your partner had caught a fall earlier that day with the same grigri/rope combo, so he knows how to catch.
The fact he has rope burns shows he was trying to grab the rope but that it was hard to stop.

It was not necessarily threaded the wrong way.

If a person has rope burns on their non-brake hand, it means that they panicked and gripped down on the climber side, which slows the rope just enough to prevent the brake from engaging, but still fast enough to crater the climber. When this happens, it has nothing to do with what direction the device was threaded.

This just goes back to an old adage that jt512 (I think) said a few years ago: "100% of assisted-lock device accidents could be prevented if the belayer was unconscious."


Partner cracklover


May 14, 2013, 8:07 AM
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Re: [anonymousCoward] Dropped - blame gear or partner? [In reply to]
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anonymousCoward wrote:
To clarify this a bit, I was right at a bolt and had clipped in. I shouldn't have fallen more than a few feet plus the rope stretch.

My partner had a severe rope burn on his hand.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I'm still not sure what to make of this situation.

You've been asked this a few times before: Which hand?

GO

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