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Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion?
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jerry99


May 10, 2013, 8:53 AM
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Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion?
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We planning to hike Angels Landing Trail in Zion. The last part is very narrow with sheer cliffs on both sides. There is a chain to hold onto. 6 people have fallen to their deaths in the last 8 years. There have probably been hundreds of thousands who've walked across this narrow part and reached the summit without incident. We have a 16 and 13 year old. We've climbed in climbing gyms and I have harnesses for everyone. I was thinking about having all 4 of us wear our harnesses and tying us together with say about 8 f of rope between each of us. Any thoughts on this?


csproul


May 10, 2013, 9:29 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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jerry99 wrote:
We planning to hike Angels Landing Trail in Zion. The last part is very narrow with sheer cliffs on both sides. There is a chain to hold onto. 6 people have fallen to their deaths in the last 8 years. There have probably been hundreds of thousands who've walked across this narrow part and reached the summit without incident. We have a 16 and 13 year old. We've climbed in climbing gyms and I have harnesses for everyone. I was thinking about having all 4 of us wear our harnesses and tying us together with say about 8 f of rope between each of us. Any thoughts on this?
Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Do it without the rope.


stagg54


May 10, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Re: [csproul] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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Agreed. Sounds like a death pact.

If you are going to rope up, I would most definitely use some kind of belay. I guess you could do the old alpine trick where if you partner falls off 1 side, you jump off the other. (It is kind of a narrow ridge).

I've done that particular hike and as long as the kids aren't goofing around, they should be fine, especially if they have climbed before.

Make sure they wear appropriate footwear. You'd be amazed at the number of high heels and flip flops I saw up there.


wivanoff


May 10, 2013, 9:59 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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Just hike up the trail and use the chains for handholds.

Someone asked about this trail over on supertopo recently.
http://www.supertopo.com/...g=2122348#msg2122348

When my wife and i hiked that trail we ran into a British couple in their late 70s. He said his wife wanted to come to Zion again and he told her he'd go if she would hike up to Angels Landing with him again. They both made it with no problem.


jmeizis


May 10, 2013, 10:38 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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If somebody falls what is 8 ft. of rope going to do to prevent them from yanking everyone else off with them?

Having a rope doesn't automatically make you safer. In fact having a rope on may make them less cautious because of an incorrect assumption of safety. People often act more cautiously when they believe there is more risk.


acorneau


May 10, 2013, 11:02 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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Since you already have harnesses for everyone then buy (or make) a set of rabbit ears (dual-arm tethers) so you can go via ferrata style.

Like this one...

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...iser-via-ferrata-set


notapplicable


May 10, 2013, 11:57 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
Since you already have harnesses for everyone then buy (or make) a set of rabbit ears (dual-arm tethers) so you can go via ferrata style.

Like this one...

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...iser-via-ferrata-set

Yep. If you are concerned, do ^^this^^.

If you are concerned about the children managing their own attachment points, you could rope one kid to each adult and have the adults anchor themselves to the cable as mentioned above,


wivanoff


May 10, 2013, 12:09 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Since you already have harnesses for everyone then buy (or make) a set of rabbit ears (dual-arm tethers) so you can go via ferrata style.

Like this one...

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...iser-via-ferrata-set

Yep. If you are concerned, do ^^this^^.

If you are concerned about the children managing their own attachment points, you could rope one kid to each adult and have the adults anchor themselves to the cable as mentioned above,

I don't know if you guys have been there, but those chains are pretty big. I'd guess you need carabiners with WIDE openings. Also, the chains don't go the whole way. They're only in short sections.


lena_chita
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May 10, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Since you already have harnesses for everyone then buy (or make) a set of rabbit ears (dual-arm tethers) so you can go via ferrata style.

Like this one...

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...iser-via-ferrata-set

Yep. If you are concerned, do ^^this^^.

If you are concerned about the children managing their own attachment points, you could rope one kid to each adult and have the adults anchor themselves to the cable as mentioned above,

Oh, come on! the kids are 16 and 13, not 6 and 3. And the dangerous spot on the trail looks like this:



Photo taken from here:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/...-done-angels-landing


Yes, by all means you need to be careful. It won't be a good place to be in winter, during rain or in the dark. It is not a good place for drunken shananigans. It is not a place to scramble down the slope for a good photo angle. But otherwise, you would have more trouble carrying your rope and harnesses up there, and finding a place to rope up.


camhead


May 10, 2013, 12:52 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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What Lena said. And as anyone who has done that trail will attest, using any sort of ropes/via ferrata/belay setup would cause a clusterfuck traffic jam of epic proportions. The trail gets really crowded and bottlenecked, and the last thing you need is a group of gumbies fussing with ropes and systems.


marc801


May 10, 2013, 1:28 PM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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jerry99 wrote:
We planning to hike Angels Landing Trail in Zion. The last part is very narrow with sheer cliffs on both sides. There is a chain to hold onto. 6 people have fallen to their deaths in the last 8 years. There have probably been hundreds of thousands who've walked across this narrow part and reached the summit without incident. We have a 16 and 13 year old. We've climbed in climbing gyms and I have harnesses for everyone. I was thinking about having all 4 of us wear our harnesses and tying us together with say about 8 f of rope between each of us. Any thoughts on this?

As others have said, many times, EMPHATICALLY NO!!!!
Don't do this. Lena-chita's post nails it.
Yes, the chains are far to beefy for any of the few biners that might fit to be able to run smoothly. The chains are also highly discontinuous - they are only where really needed.

Also, the majority of the deaths - and there really haven't been that many at all - have been from the top or Scouts Lookout (at the base of the final bit that has all the chains), not from the trail itself. A few were boy scouts seeing how close they could get to the edge. If anyone of your party freaks, they can just hang out at the Scouts Lookout area.

Some of my photos of the trail. This was on a relatively light Saturday in November 2009:











6pacfershur


May 10, 2013, 6:55 PM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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please ask your question to the rangers at ZNP or a climbing shop in st. george, not the nitwits on this website....


vinnie83


May 11, 2013, 4:39 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
please ask your question to the rangers at ZNP or a climbing shop in st. george, not the nitwits on this website....

Having spent a lot of time climbing in ZNP as well as occasionally working in the park to do search and rescue work I'd say that not only is a lot of the advice here spot on, but it's the same thing the rangers or any climbing shop is going to tell you: DON'T BRING A ROPE.


smallclimber


May 11, 2013, 7:03 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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This is a good and fun hike, we did it several years ago. There is no need for ropes or harnesses and as others have said it would likely be more dangerous. Just make sure your children are aware of their surroundings, have sensible shoes/boots on and are not messing around or trying to rush or push past other hikers etc.


marc801


May 11, 2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
please ask your question to the rangers at ZNP or a climbing shop in st. george, not the nitwits on this website....
Exactly which responses do you feel were incorrect or inaccurate?


6pacfershur


May 11, 2013, 4:55 PM
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Re: [marc801] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
please ask your question to the rangers at ZNP or a climbing shop in st. george, not the nitwits on this website....
Exactly which responses do you feel were incorrect or inaccurate?

whenever a newcomer posts a legitimate question on this forum, they usually get frontloaded with a ton of bullshit from the same 10-12 forum members about how stupid the OP is for asking a question like that on the interwebz, etc......my comment doesnt declare that any of the information was incorrect or inaccurate....


csproul


May 11, 2013, 5:34 PM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
marc801 wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
please ask your question to the rangers at ZNP or a climbing shop in st. george, not the nitwits on this website....
Exactly which responses do you feel were incorrect or inaccurate?

whenever a newcomer posts a legitimate question on this forum, they usually get frontloaded with a ton of bullshit from the same 10-12 forum members about how stupid the OP is for asking a question like that on the interwebz, etc......my comment doesnt declare that any of the information was incorrect or inaccurate....
I don't see one post telling the OP that they are stupid. What I see are posts from no less than 7 people who have been on that particular trail and had meaningful, useful advice for the OP...and one post from you calling us nitwits.


6pacfershur


May 11, 2013, 5:54 PM
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Re: [csproul] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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must be an off-day....


mikebarter387


May 12, 2013, 7:44 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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What you want to do is end-rope the kids. Here is how you tie them in.

http://youtu.be/TpHOvDJlXlQ

Here are a few hints on how to short rope two or more people.
http://youtu.be/D5ZBXysNPhY


iknowfear


May 12, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Re: [mikebarter387] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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mikebarter387 wrote:
What you want to do is end-rope the kids. Here is how you tie them in.

http://youtu.be/TpHOvDJlXlQ

Here are a few hints on how to short rope two or more people.
http://youtu.be/D5ZBXysNPhY

To jerry99: DO NOT Short rope or rope up without extensive training and trying it out on easy terrain. It is extremly difficult (meaning next to impossible) to hold even a stumble if there is the slightest of slack in the system.


(This post was edited by iknowfear on May 12, 2013, 2:05 PM)


mikebarter387


May 12, 2013, 6:58 PM
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Re: [iknowfear] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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That is just plain dumb! In guides training we get about as much instruction as the second video shows couple weeks later we are doing it for real.
I have held full on falls with client hanging over a boulder on assiniboine,. making that eye to eye contact with the client knowing I earned my keep for once. Short roping is almost always about managing the guests and providing confidence. There are lots of times I couldn't hold a fall if the stumbled but they don't know that. They wouldn't move if I didn't have them tied in. It's smoke and mirrors half the time.

It really sounds like a cake walk from those who have been there. There is good advice provided.
It's obvious you don't shit about it short roping.


iknowfear


May 13, 2013, 1:57 AM
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Re: [mikebarter387] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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sorry for the lengthy post, hovever I felt this needed a reply.

mikebarter387 wrote:
That is just plain dumb! In guides training we get about as much instruction as the second video shows couple weeks later we are doing it for real.

I hope that in guides training you get a bit more then a video regarding shortroping, but anyway...

mikebarter387 wrote:
I have held full on falls with client hanging over a boulder on assiniboine,. making that eye to eye contact with the client knowing I earned my keep for once.

Great, so your did your job as a GUIDE.

mikebarter387 wrote:
Short roping is almost always about managing the guests and providing confidence. There are lots of times I couldn't hold a fall if the stumbled but they don't know that. They wouldn't move if I didn't have them tied in. It's smoke and mirrors half the time.

I agree that shortroping is a valid technique for "confidence roping":
- IF you know what you are doing (Unless jerry99 tried it out (on a gentle snow slope) he would not believe how little it takes...)
- IF one (at least the parents acting as "guides") is fully aware that a fall of anyone on the rope likely equals a fall of everyone.
It is a descision a family can make.

mikebarter387 wrote:
It really sounds like a cake walk from those who have been there. There is good advice provided.

Please, do not trick yourself or anyone else. The force to dislodge a 80kg climber is, in the best case, around 0.4 kN, which is not enough to hold even a 20 cm! fall. On rock, Friction is obviously higher, but still.
(For me there is a slight contradiction between a "cake walk" and "I could not have held a fall many times")

mikebarter387 wrote:
It's obvious you don't shit about it short roping.
True, I am not a guide. However, I have had more training & experience (as second and leader) regarding shortroping than a video. And I do not kid myself that everyone can hold a "full on fall" while shortroping without training.
When I have chosen to shortrope, I was always aware of the potential consequences.

In short here is my argument against shortroping for inexperienced leaders again:
1. It is extremly difficult (next to impossible) to hold a fall if there is even a little slack (leading to fall of all the people tied to the rope).
2. For an inexperienced leader it is quite difficult to constantly keep the rope tight while maintaining situational awareness for any sound or sign of slippage of your second
3. roping up can lead to overconfidence which leads to nastyness.

PS: sorry, could not find the original datasource in english: see slide 37 and 40


(This post was edited by iknowfear on May 13, 2013, 7:28 AM)


TradEddie


May 13, 2013, 8:28 AM
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Re: [jerry99] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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There should be absolutely no reason to rope up for this hike. My kids are 8 and 9, and I'd have no hesitation bringing them on this (with one-on-one adult supervision). If you have some specific concern (someone very afraid of heights), choose another hike.

TE


marc801


May 13, 2013, 8:56 AM
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Re: [iknowfear] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
mikebarter387 wrote:
It really sounds like a cake walk from those who have been there. There is good advice provided.

Please, do not trick yourself or anyone else. The force to dislodge a 80kg climber is, in the best case, around 0.4 kN, which is not enough to hold even a 20 cm! fall. On rock, Friction is obviously higher, but still.
(For me there is a slight contradiction between a "cake walk" and "I could not have held a fall many times")
The cakcwalk comment was about the Angel's Landing *hike*.

All this blather about short-roping and roping people together for this hike is irrelevant and pointless. Angel's Landing is not a technical climb. It is not Class 4. A few tiny spots are maybe 3rd class, if that. If someone feels they need a rope on AL, they need to pick a different hike in the park!


camhead


May 13, 2013, 11:27 AM
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Re: [marc801] Tie ropes between family members on Angels Landing Zion? [In reply to]
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I'll make this easy.


Anyone who has personally hiked Angel's Landing, AND also believes that technical ropework should be used by people like the original poster, please speak up now.

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