Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Who's main mistake ?
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


Aurel42


May 16, 2013, 9:16 PM
Post #1 of 40 (6223 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 16, 2013
Posts: 3

Who's main mistake ?
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts

My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ?

For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...)
Thanks


squeaka


May 16, 2013, 9:41 PM
Post #2 of 40 (6208 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 27, 2005
Posts: 18

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

Aurel42 wrote:
Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts

My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ?

For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...)
Thanks

You broke your ankle doing that?
Drink more milkSly


notapplicable


May 16, 2013, 9:42 PM
Post #3 of 40 (6206 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17763

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Aurel42 wrote:
Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts

My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ?

For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...)
Thanks

Clicky


jonapprill


May 16, 2013, 9:50 PM
Post #4 of 40 (6202 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 41

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Looks like Papa Woolsey.

I think the reason you got hurt was due to a combination of 'jumping' off a slab and a very static belay. Most falls on slab are due to a foot slipping off a hold and the climber slides down the face. Losing some skin is common but broken bones are uncommon because there is no impact. However by jumping off a slab you 'artificially' created an impact which was magnified by the belay.

Next time either keep climbing until you fall for real or downclimb until even with the draw and then take. Heal quick!


bearbreeder


May 16, 2013, 11:36 PM
Post #5 of 40 (6181 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the belay was very static ... also you jumped outwards ... if you are going to fall just slide down ...

its a myth that one should get a hard catch on slab ... youll swing into the rock as you found out ... id rather cheese grater a bit than get a broken ankle ...

when you are decently above the bolt NEVER say take or get your belayer to give you a hard catch (short of a ground or ledge fall) ... ALWAYS say falling ... and yr belayer should act accordingly

well bolted slab falls are fine IF you know how to fall and IF your belayer knows how to catch you ...


quasenada


May 17, 2013, 5:47 AM
Post #6 of 40 (6116 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 26, 2012
Posts: 4

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I’m starting to avoid to turn the “panic switch” when I can’t keep going (to next piece of pro, bolt, hanger) and have to down climb. Down climbing is NOT the end of the world (likely) and can bring your all around safety levels higher. At least mentally to have a strategy that down climb is “ok” will help on many instances, maybe like that one you were in. Easier said than done for sure.
I hope you have a great recovery, and come back stronger. Thanks for sharing.


caughtinside


May 17, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #7 of 40 (6003 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30358

Re: [quasenada] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Looks like neither the climber nor the belay knew what they were doing there. You can see the super tight rope so there is no give there. The climber jumps off facing out, adding force and twisting midair from the rope so she nailed one foot harder.

Too bad about your injury, plus you were past the crux!


Aurel42


May 17, 2013, 10:13 AM
Post #8 of 40 (5993 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 16, 2013
Posts: 3

Re: [caughtinside] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

"Looks like Papa Woolsey. "
Waow, it was. -Impressed-

Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...
This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?

By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :)


Partner drector


May 17, 2013, 10:33 AM
Post #9 of 40 (5983 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yes, if you were facing the wall the your foot would have hit the wall as if you were walking or running backwards.

But why ask when the footage is so obvious? Ankles don't bend sideways very far and you hit your foot on the wall while still falling.

And don't take fun falls on a slab!

Dave


lkeegan


May 17, 2013, 10:40 AM
Post #10 of 40 (5978 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 13, 2009
Posts: 54

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Aurel42 wrote:
"Looks like Papa Woolsey. "
Waow, it was. -Impressed-

Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...
This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?

By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :)



If you had a more dynamic catch, you likely wouldn't have broken your ankle.


majid_sabet


May 17, 2013, 5:26 PM
Post #11 of 40 (5856 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8344

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

another way to fill this forum


notapplicable


May 18, 2013, 10:02 AM
Post #12 of 40 (5750 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17763

Re: [lkeegan] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

lkeegan wrote:
Aurel42 wrote:
"Looks like Papa Woolsey. "
Waow, it was. -Impressed-

Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...
This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?

By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :)



If you had a more dynamic catch, you likely wouldn't have broken your ankle.

But the combination of jumping off like that and a dynamic belay may have resulted in her flipping over backwards and cracking her skull. It's similar to taking a slab fall above a bulge or overlap. You get airborn there for a second and when youre shoes come back in contact with the rock you almost always flip over or tumble.

The best thing to do there would have been to downclimb and if she fell in the process, she would have just slid it out.

And for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!


Syd


May 18, 2013, 8:36 PM
Post #13 of 40 (5678 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

I don't think it would have made much difference what you or your belayer was doing, unless you didn't jump. Even with the softest belay you'd still hit the rock with at least the same velocity. Sliding falls on slabs can also be quite nasty. Slowing the video down shows your foot hitting quite squarely. Best solution for those with weak ankles, is to climb overhangs ;-)


bearbreeder


May 18, 2013, 9:09 PM
Post #14 of 40 (5665 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Syd] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...

ive fallen on lead on slabs enough times, if its well bolted, theres no protruding features and you and yr belayer know what yr doing youre generally fine

many of the more moderate squamish routes into the 5.10s are basically a slab with a crack ... people fall on those all the time

the flip side is that if neither you nor your belayer has experience falling on slab you can screw it up like anything else ...


jt512


May 18, 2013, 10:47 PM
Post #15 of 40 (5646 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [notapplicable] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

notapplicable wrote:
And for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!

That advice was obviously not well thought out. First of all, as a general rule, the last three words are superfluous. That is, the general rule is simply,

"For the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab!"

However, once the general rule is broken, then the rule becomes gender-specific. For example, if I am belaying you, then the rule becomes:

If you are male, then for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!
If you are female, then for the love or god and all that is holy, please climb slab in short shorts!


Syd


May 19, 2013, 12:08 AM
Post #16 of 40 (5627 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [bearbreeder] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...

Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ?


billl7


May 19, 2013, 7:04 AM
Post #17 of 40 (5587 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Aurel42 wrote:
... downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...

You need to fall more like a man. Get a big fat wallet in your hip pocket. That way, you can sit on it and slide down. (just kidding about the 'man' part)

Aurel42 wrote:
This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?

Rock shoes stick like crazy when landing on them with the forces being into the rock. I badly broke one ankle and badly sprained the other a few years back on some slab without the rope ever coming taught - although the fall was about twice as long and I wasn't oriented even close to optimal. I did land cleanly on my feet though. Crazy

I'll preface the rest of this by saying I don't have a lot of experience falling on slab. But from the little experience that I have ...

Except for all that exposed skin, my tendency on slippery slab and fall-length like that would be to down climb until I slipped and/or came tight against the rope. And when the fall starts and for a short run-out like that, I'd prefer to slide on hips/butt or (maybe) try to run backwards for as long as I could stay upright ... rather than trying to "stick" the landing.

I think what people mean in this case about a softer catch is to reduce the pendulum effect. The more slowly you decelerate, the less fall forces have a chance / time to be converted as force into the rock. Doing so also puts more rope in the system getting the leader farther down from the pendulum point which also reduces the pendulum effect.

I only have one criticism for your belayer: Instead of encouraging you to jump and getting those "excellent" results, I think your belayer should have let your instincts have more play in how and when to do it.

Another option might be to have someone lower a rope to you from above ... or perhaps lower some pants for you to put on ... or rap down themselves and put a long draw on the next bolt so you could clip it and carry on with your lead. It didn't look like there was any time urgency.

Glad your recovery is going well!
Bill L


bearbreeder


May 19, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #18 of 40 (5568 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Syd] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Syd wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...

Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ?

The person would have swung in as much

Have you fallen much on slabby terrain?

Wink


billl7


May 19, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #19 of 40 (5560 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [bearbreeder] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
Syd wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...

Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ?

The person would have swung in as much

Right - that's the ~horizontal.

~Vertically, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much down the slab at touch point that she avoids completely flipping upside down.

Bill L


bearbreeder


May 19, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #20 of 40 (5553 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [billl7] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
Right - that's the ~horizontal.

~Vertically, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much down the slab at touch point that she avoids completely flipping upside down.

Bill L

most of the people ive seen flip over on slab is because of getting the rope behind the leg ... which is quite easy on wandering/runnout slab if yr not paying attention ...

im not saying you cant flip over in other ways ... but its MUCH less common ...just lean forward a bit not backwards (like gym climbers tend to do) when you fall, you may lose a bit of skin but thats slab climbing for ya

Tongue


billl7


May 19, 2013, 9:19 AM
Post #21 of 40 (5541 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [bearbreeder] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In this case, I tend to agree with NA here ...

notapplicable wrote:
But the combination of jumping off like that and a dynamic belay may have resulted in her flipping over backwards ....

... unless the belayer has good timing. And clearly this belayer didn't.

Still, the OP is asking if it could have been better and yes - I also agree with you, bearbreeder - that it could have with a soft catch plus with a leader ready to fall feet more than she did.


(This post was edited by billl7 on May 19, 2013, 9:20 AM)


bandycoot


May 19, 2013, 1:17 PM
Post #22 of 40 (5492 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028

Re: [Aurel42] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yes, it would have been different if you were facing the wall. Due to the way you jumped, you impacted the wall with a single foot, as opposed to both. If you were facing the wall, you would have distributed the force between both feet.

You jumped out, which was a terrible idea, that compounded by the abysmal belay increased your impact into the wall.

What you should have done is try to downclimb until you fell. Then you're facing the wall, you minimize the distance fallen as much as possible, and there's no outward jump to slam you back into the wall. Best case scenario, you actually pull off the downclimb and you're at the bolt.

Josh


Syd


May 19, 2013, 8:30 PM
Post #23 of 40 (5374 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [billl7] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much ...

Bill L

I think that is the point ... if the jump is exactly right such that she jumps out just far enough to have minimum swing in, and the fall ends at the exact moment that the fall ends, impact is small. Anything else and it starts to hurt.

I did some reading and the captstan equation predicts that the tension in the climbing rope will be over 2.3 times that coming from the top draw to the belayer. That is, friction on the top draw has a big effect on reducing the dynamic effects of the dynamic rope. The light weight climber would also reduce dynamic stretch. This is probably why the video looks like a fall on a static.


bearbreeder


May 20, 2013, 2:38 AM
Post #24 of 40 (5305 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Syd] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Syd wrote:
billl7 wrote:
, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much ...

Bill L

I think that is the point ... if the jump is exactly right such that she jumps out just far enough to have minimum swing in, and the fall ends at the exact moment that the fall ends, impact is small. Anything else and it starts to hurt.

I did some reading and the captstan equation predicts that the tension in the climbing rope will be over 2.3 times that coming from the top draw to the belayer. That is, friction on the top draw has a big effect on reducing the dynamic effects of the dynamic rope. The light weight climber would also reduce dynamic stretch. This is probably why the video looks like a fall on a static.

no ... its not hard ... keep a slight bit of slack in the rope ... as the person falls let yourself get pulled in/up a bit, no need to jump ... easy to do

how much do you fall on lead, especially slab?

Wink


Syd


May 20, 2013, 4:34 AM
Post #25 of 40 (5283 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [bearbreeder] Who's main mistake ? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

We rarely climb slabs. There's a great ugly youtube vid of a sliding slab fall but I can't find it.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook