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Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender
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TheProducer


May 26, 2010, 10:16 AM
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Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender
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Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
walk up to anchors set a normal anchor as if top roping normally, then instead of running the ropes through the master point anchor, tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

now to me this sounds like a solid way to climb solo top ropeing what do you think?


shockabuku


May 26, 2010, 10:29 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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I've done a fair amount of top roping soloing and I don't know what you mean by the bolded part below.

TheProducer wrote:
...clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

Using an appropriate device, properly rigged, should not involve "jumaring the ascender up". At least I don't think so since I don't really know what that means.

That particular ascender wouldn't be my personal choice of TR solo devices for various reasons but it will probably work if used reasonably.


brianinslc


May 26, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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TheProducer wrote:
Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

then clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

No, I don't think what you're proposing is safe.

Petzl describes how to use a single handled ascender in the literature (see item 10) for TR self belay:

http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/B17S_ascension_B175010J.pdf

See also:

http://www.petzl.com/us/node/9725

A handled ascender is really for ascending a rope, not TR self belay. I wouldn't use one for it. There are much better devices for self belay on a TR.

Good luck,

-Brian in SLC


dugl33


May 26, 2010, 10:36 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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TheProducer wrote:
Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
walk up to anchors set a normal anchor as if top roping normally, then instead of running the ropes through the master point anchor, tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

now to me this sounds like a solid way to climb solo top ropeing what do you think?

I could see how this could work but a mini-traxion, croll, or soloist type device would be better.

What's awkward with a normal handled ascender is it will ride fairly high and ideally you want the device as close to your waist as possible. With a croll or mini-traxion many people use a chest sling or chest harness to hold the device up and inline -- which negates a fair amount of the "drop" onto the device.

Assuming a solid anchor your risks include the ascender twisting off the rope, cutting through the rope, and cam breakage. Also forces will increase the closer you get to the anchor as less rope will be available to stretch. You will also want to exercise caution transitioning from climbing to rapping, obviously.

Whatever you do use the other fixed rope strand to tie back up knots. Also, don't bottom anchor the primary rope to make it tight, just hang some shoes or water bottle or something.

My .02, for what its worth.

(edit to add: properly done your set-up will self feed without slack developing as you climb, especially once there is a little rope weight below the device. You may need to "help" the feed a bit in the beginning or on really low angle stuff, but you shouldn't need to constantly slide the ascender up as you describe)


(This post was edited by dugl33 on May 26, 2010, 10:42 AM)


jaablink


May 27, 2010, 3:30 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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I don’t have time to get into all this right now , but in short there are much better devices as mentioned for rope soloing. The other problem is there is no redundancy in your description.
You can pm me, drive on down to PA, or meet me at the Gunks, and can show you how to set up a redundant rig….


dugl33


May 28, 2010, 4:02 PM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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Still wouldn't be my device of choice... but, from Petzl.



Don't forget your backup knots on the other fixed line. I'd probably throw a quicklink or small biner on the bottom hole around the rope, too. Not sure what for exactly, but what the heck. Also, notice from the "ur gonna die" icons that you want the top biner to be around the rope as shown in the main illustration.
Attachments: selfbelay.png (108 KB)


mju6559


May 24, 2013, 2:34 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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Honestly,
This is the perfect method for roped soloing that I have seen, tried and tested.

I have tried the system using the GriGri2 and Silent Partner. Hated both.

I now use a Petzl Ascention Ascender AND a Petzl Mini-Traxion as my redundant backup device. I climb using 2 separate strands of a 10.4mm rope rigged from above (I normally do laps on routes less than 100 ft high) and this system works like a charm leaving both hands FREE to climb with and not have to be feeding rope thru distracting you, etc.

Now for the other systems - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

GriGri2 with back up knots on a 2nd strand of rope:
I didn't care for this method b/c one has to keep physically PULLING the climbing rope THRU the GriGri as one ascends. There is a lot of rope drag inside of this device and this is a real PITA because it limits the level of difficulty of a route one can climb b/c you need to have a free hand to keep pulling the slack rope up thru the GriGri. Not optimal for doing laps on hard routes at your max skill level. The 1 ADVANTAGE of this rig tho IS the ability to rap OFF of the route after a fall or if tired w/o needing to rig a separate rap device, etc. to lower off the route.

Silent Partner with a 2nd backup device or knots on the 2nd strand of rope:
Hated this as well.
1) The Silent Partner costs $250 brand new or around $150 used. It is bulky and heavy. It does lock up in a fall for sure with the clove hitch inside of the device - and that's part of the problem! Once you fall onto it, it's a SOB to undo the cinched clove hitch w/o somehow taking weight off the device when hanging from the device! You have to either connect a Prussik to get your weight off of the device to free it up, or a jumar, or - get back on-route or a ledge or stance and get your weight OFF of the unit - and AT THAT - dick around with at least 1 hand to get the clove hitch freed up. That was def a PITA for ME.

So for about $150 if purchased BRAND NEW - the Petzl Ascention Ascender AND a Petzl Mini-Traxion[/b seems to be the best option / system that I have used yet! With just your pack or something weighing a few lbs tied to the bottom of your ropes at the base of the route - both devices will feed thru the rope with 99% ease and leaves BOTH hands free to climb the max difficulty of the route(s) you are working...


(This post was edited by mju6559 on May 24, 2013, 2:44 AM)


majid_sabet


May 24, 2013, 8:38 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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TheProducer wrote:
Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
walk up to anchors set a normal anchor as if top roping normally, then instead of running the ropes through the master point anchor, tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

now to me this sounds like a solid way to climb solo top ropeing what do you think?

the only solid thing about your method is a solid 3x7 feet wooden box.












(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 24, 2013, 9:14 PM)


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 8:42 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

the only solid thing about your method is a solid 3x7 feet wooden box


how often do you TR solo mistah "climbing expert" Wink


majid_sabet


May 24, 2013, 10:00 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

the only solid thing about your method is a solid 3x7 feet wooden box


how often do you TR solo mistah "climbing expert" Wink

I am not a climber nor climbing expert


iron106


May 24, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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TheProducer wrote:
Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then ...

I don't think any one has answered this aspect. Anchoring from the top, then tying off the pack on the botton, on a single strand, rather than anchoring the bottom redirecting it through the top anchor, then tying off to a pack .


csproul


May 24, 2013, 10:15 AM
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Re: [iron106] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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iron106 wrote:
TheProducer wrote:
Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then ...

I don't think any one has answered this aspect. Anchoring from the top, then tying off the pack on the botton, on a single strand, rather than anchoring the bottom redirecting it through the top anchor, then tying off to a pack .
One of these is going to give you more stretch than the other. That could be a good thing (think falling close to an anchor tied off at the top) or it could be a bad thing (think falling close to the ground with the rope redirected through the top). Also, tying the anchor off on the ground and redirecting doesn't allow you to use the opposite strand as an independent backup.


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:


I am not a climber nor climbing expert

yet here you are telling people they are going to die ... from yr vast experience climbing

well im off to do some TR solo laps today Wink


majid_sabet


May 24, 2013, 10:44 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:


I am not a climber nor climbing expert

yet here you are telling people they are going to die ... from yr vast experience climbing

well im off to do some TR solo laps today Wink

I am going to tell they will die cause I have real data on dead climbers with ascenders on their harness and a broken rope next to it, now instead of chasing me all over this site, you should spend some time reading or doing doing research on some of the topics posted on this forum such as what Op is mentioning here.


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:


I am not a climber nor climbing expert

yet here you are telling people they are going to die ... from yr vast experience climbing

well im off to do some TR solo laps today Wink

I am going to tell they will die cause I have real data on dead climbers with ascenders on their harness and a broken rope next to it, now instead of chasing me all over this site, you should spend some time reading or doing doing research on some of the topics posted on this forum such as what Op is mentioning here.

Im setting up my TR solo as i type this

Maybe instead of telling people that theyll end up in wooden boxes

You should actually go climb something and practice TR soloing over and over again ...

Rather than just spew off "statistics" Tongue


majid_sabet


May 24, 2013, 12:50 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:


I am not a climber nor climbing expert

yet here you are telling people they are going to die ... from yr vast experience climbing

well im off to do some TR solo laps today Wink

I am going to tell they will die cause I have real data on dead climbers with ascenders on their harness and a broken rope next to it, now instead of chasing me all over this site, you should spend some time reading or doing doing research on some of the topics posted on this forum such as what Op is mentioning here.

Im setting up my TR solo as i type this

Maybe instead of telling people that theyll end up in wooden boxes

You should actually go climb something and practice TR soloing over and over again ...

Rather than just spew off "statistics" Tongue

you need help




A lot of it


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 24, 2013, 9:14 PM)


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 11:45 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
you need help




A lot of it

im not the one whos telling people theyll end up in wooden boxes ... for something i dont do but yet proclaim their deaths

Wink


billcoe_


May 25, 2013, 7:31 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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Disagree with my brothers who say not to do it. Of course it will work and work fine. I've climbed with a single ascender, and have seen it done many many times.

Big Time Caveats: Don't allow slack in the system if you are going to fall. Which means, make a move, more the ascender, make a move, move the ascender. Repeat. It's a good workout and great practice for trad leading where you have to hang on with a single hand to fumble in a piece. Remember that ascenders are not designed for lead falls. Zero to little slack in a fall.

Next: in your scenario you have 2 fixed ropes (ie, you had the middle of the line with a figure 8 into a powerpoint.) Rappel a single line to get to the base making sure that you won't lose control due to less friction. As you get to what you perceive are rests right before cruxes, wrap the rope a few times around your thigh or otherwise lock off the rap (be a good idea to tie in short if you have any doubts and if you do this with the ascender make sure you will be able to underweight the rope to free it:-), take the free line right in front of you and tie off a figure 8. Do that several times. When you get to the base, you are looking up at a line with no knots that your ascender will go on, and another one that is just knots. As you slide the ascender up and climb to each rest, clip off your pre-tied knots to a locking biner.

Some people like to have a couple of biners down there on the belay loop so that you clip the high knot and can drop the lower one which you no longer need.

In fact, I've been burned by partners not showing up and used the "clip the knots" version exclusively as I had no ascender. You wind up looking at what amounts to a leader fall if you only use the knots, so plan them carefully:-).

Are there better ways: sure. Will this work fine: sure. If you were feeling really dicey, have 2 power points, one for the ascender side of the rope and one for the backup knot rope. Very redundant.

I've used mini-trax's, Gri-gris, Soloist, Silent Partner, Ushba and some other Monkey horseshit over the years. This will work and work fine if that's what ya own, but don't let slack built up on the ascender rope or plan on replacing the rope you core the first time you fall too far.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on May 25, 2013, 7:36 AM)


milesenoell


May 25, 2013, 7:47 AM
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Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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TheProducer wrote:
Hey guys i know theres forums about top rope soloing but no one on those could answer anything so heres my question:

Do you think this would work as a safe good method of top rope soloing?

Method:
walk up to anchors set a normal anchor as if top roping normally, then instead of running the ropes through the master point anchor, tye off a figure 8 knot on a bight of the rope, throw the rope down, rappel down using a normaly atc, make the rope straight over the route, make the rope tight by tying it off or by using a pack, then clipping a right handed Petzl Ascension Ascender on the rope and tying it off to my belay loop, jumaring that up and climbing up the route, jumaring the ascender up and then climbing up, and repeat until getting to the anchors. then rappel again and start over.

now to me this sounds like a solid way to climb solo top ropeing what do you think?

I have run countless laps on just the system you describe (minus all the screwing with the device, since the whole reason for using an Ascension is that you don't have to tend it), and most of the advice here is spot on: you aren't likely to die using it like Petzl indicates, BUT, there are way better devices to use. Get a device like a mini-trax that doesn't have teeth on the cam. Clipping back up knots on the second strand, or a backup knot in the main strand to keep you off the ground in case of failure are good ideas and take very little time.

Mostly though, there is nobody to catch your mistakes when you solo, so make damn sure you do your safety check before leaving the ground every god-damn time!

The only time I've ever had a problem with this system was when I leaned back to take a rest and found that my cam was not engaged. It was my second or third lap on the route that morning and I got complacent with my safety checks. A second device, a backup knot, or just a simple check of the cam before leaving the ground could have saved me a broken foot.

That said, I still quite often rig a single Ascenscion on my old 11mm rope and run laps off. I know my system is outdated, but I don't think it's especially dangerous when used properly.

YMMV.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on May 25, 2013, 7:51 AM)


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 7:50 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
you need help




A lot of it

im not the one whos telling people theyll end up in wooden boxes ... for something i dont do but yet proclaim their deaths

Wink

Are you providing OP with anything here other than following me left and right trying to point your dic* on my face hoping to see if you could piss on me?

you need to go out there, take a rope, take a dead weight,find a good anchor, drop the fucking thing on the rope with ascender on it, take a photo, come back here and provide either a photo or data or even better than that, do it yourself and then let the report come the next day so we could post in I&A.


bearbreeder


May 25, 2013, 8:25 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Are you providing OP with anything here other than following me left and right trying to point your dic* on my face hoping to see if you could piss on me?

you need to go out there, take a rope, take a dead weight,find a good anchor, drop the fucking thing on the rope with ascender on it, take a photo, come back here and provide either a photo or data or even better than that, do it yourself and then let the report come the next day so we could post in I&A.

so now its about you wanting people having accidents in I&A ... why dont YOU post up a photo of yr soloing since yr obviously bringing up wooden boxes and A&I ... you MUST have vast experience doing so Wink

from yesterday while you were going off about people dying ..

soloing and cleaning





post up yr soloing photos mahhh-jeeed Tongue


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 9:19 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Are you providing OP with anything here other than following me left and right trying to point your dic* on my face hoping to see if you could piss on me?

you need to go out there, take a rope, take a dead weight,find a good anchor, drop the fucking thing on the rope with ascender on it, take a photo, come back here and provide either a photo or data or even better than that, do it yourself and then let the report come the next day so we could post in I&A.

so now its about you wanting people having accidents in I&A ... why dont YOU post up a photo of yr soloing since yr obviously bringing up wooden boxes and A&I ... you MUST have vast experience doing so Wink

from yesterday while you were going off about people dying ..

soloing and cleaning

[image]http://i42.tinypic.com/1iorh5.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i40.tinypic.com/3357b52.jpg[/image]

post up yr soloing photos mahhh-jeeed Tongue


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 25, 2013, 12:18 PM)


bearbreeder


May 25, 2013, 10:31 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I am telling you, point your dic* on someone else

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awww cry me a river mister "youll end up in a wooden box" ... "lets see you end up in A&I"

is that a single ascender yr using on a single rope with no backup knots ... climbing in yr sneakers Tongue

lead that 5.8 yet?

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on May 25, 2013, 10:41 AM)


distantThunder


Aug 1, 2013, 7:49 AM
Post #24 of 24 (2700 views)
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Registered: Jul 4, 2012
Posts: 43

Re: [TheProducer] Top Rope Soloing with Petzl Ascension ascender [In reply to]
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"The only time I've ever had a problem with this system was when I leaned back to take a rest and found that my cam was not engaged."

Yep. The one main danger of the devices that do not have teeth is that they require some force for the cam to catch the rope. Accidents have been uncommon. But they occur in the situation you describe - where a climber leans back gradually. Or they occur because when someone falls, they subsconsciously grab the rope ABOVE the belay device. This means some of the weight of the climber is transmitted into his arms, and only some force goes into the belay device. In this situation, TR belay devices (no teeth) can become free-running and WHAM ... you hit the ground.

But it will not happen if you tie backup knots into a second independent rope.

dT


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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