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RockyBobby
Jun 3, 2013, 2:30 PM
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Been bouldering and top roping for almost 3 years now(all indoors until this spring/summer) and feel like I am ready to take the next step. My local climbing gym offers several classes(lead climbing,intro to trad,etc). The lead climbing class is pretty reasonable($30 or so) but I really dont like the idea of structured classes and I think the trad classes start to get pretty expensive. I have a solid group of friends climbing but they are all at my level or below. Any suggestions on what other avenues to take to further my climbing abilities. I have been scouring this and the other popular forums absorbing all knowledge possible but I am thinking I need to find a "mentor" or group I can tag along with that is at a higher skill level...easier said than done sometimes. Any groups hitting up Crowders mtn on the regular that are sport/trad climbing that would like to show a relative noob/eager to learn beginner some new skills?
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lena_chita
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Jun 3, 2013, 5:07 PM
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RockyBobby wrote: Been bouldering and top roping for almost 3 years now(all indoors until this spring/summer) and feel like I am ready to take the next step. My local climbing gym offers several classes(lead climbing,intro to trad,etc). The lead climbing class is pretty reasonable($30 or so) but I really dont like the idea of structured classes and I think the trad classes start to get pretty expensive. I have a solid group of friends climbing but they are all at my level or below. Any suggestions on what other avenues to take to further my climbing abilities. I have been scouring this and the other popular forums absorbing all knowledge possible but I am thinking I need to find a "mentor" or group I can tag along with that is at a higher skill level...easier said than done sometimes. Any groups hitting up Crowders mtn on the regular that are sport/trad climbing that would like to show a relative noob/eager to learn beginner some new skills?
A "lead class" doesn't by any means teach you everything you need to know. It is usually a class that takes a few hours, over a course of one or two days. Even a person who doesn't like "Structured classes" can manage that much. After all, you DID probably take a belay class when you first started toproping at the gym, right? This is no different.
They will go over basics, you will learn to clean sport anchors, and what back-clipping/z-clipping, etc. means. You'll learn the basics of lead belaying, and maybe get to do a mock lead and take a practice lead fall with TR backup. That's about it.
So your idea of finding a "mentor" or group that you can tag along with is great, and you would still need to do it, even if you take the lead class. But people might be a little more inclined to let you tag along if you do take that class first, so they know that you at least have some background. And also, often there are group trips that are organized by the gym for people who took the lead class, so they can get more hands-on experience.
Bottom line; take that class.
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Kartessa
Jun 4, 2013, 3:15 AM
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Whats wrong with a structured group lesson to learn a new skill?
Do you prefer trial and error?
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rsmillbern
Jun 4, 2013, 9:41 AM
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Finding a good group can be hard. When I started climbing the NCROCK group was great, and may still be - I have been away for a few years. There does not seem to be too much activity, but they do seem to still meet for a beer once a month.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nc-rock/
Another good place to look, in my opinion, is Fox Mountain Guides. I have taken a few classes with them and been very satisfied. Yes, you have to pay, but I think it is worth it for good instruction.
http://www.foxmountainguides.com/rock-climbing/rock-climbing-instruction
You will find that NC has some really great and giving climbers out there, however, I think that most will not respond directly on the internet. You might have better luck on the NCROCK forum.
If all else fails I would be happy to take you out. Travel expenses might cost a bit more than a class or 2 with Fox though as I don't get to NC too often
;-).
Good luck and enjoy the NC climbing. I miss it.
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RockyBobby
Jun 4, 2013, 12:38 PM
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lena_chita wrote: RockyBobby wrote: Been bouldering and top roping for almost 3 years now(all indoors until this spring/summer) and feel like I am ready to take the next step. My local climbing gym offers several classes(lead climbing,intro to trad,etc). The lead climbing class is pretty reasonable($30 or so) but I really dont like the idea of structured classes and I think the trad classes start to get pretty expensive. I have a solid group of friends climbing but they are all at my level or below. Any suggestions on what other avenues to take to further my climbing abilities. I have been scouring this and the other popular forums absorbing all knowledge possible but I am thinking I need to find a "mentor" or group I can tag along with that is at a higher skill level...easier said than done sometimes. Any groups hitting up Crowders mtn on the regular that are sport/trad climbing that would like to show a relative noob/eager to learn beginner some new skills? A "lead class" doesn't by any means teach you everything you need to know. It is usually a class that takes a few hours, over a course of one or two days. Even a person who doesn't like "Structured classes" can manage that much. After all, you DID probably take a belay class when you first started toproping at the gym, right? This is no different. They will go over basics, you will learn to clean sport anchors, and what back-clipping/z-clipping, etc. means. You'll learn the basics of lead belaying, and maybe get to do a mock lead and take a practice lead fall with TR backup. That's about it. So your idea of finding a "mentor" or group that you can tag along with is great, and you would still need to do it, even if you take the lead class. But people might be a little more inclined to let you tag along if you do take that class first, so they know that you at least have some background. And also, often there are group trips that are organized by the gym for people who took the lead class, so they can get more hands-on experience. Bottom line; take that class.
Lena,
The belay class is all of ten minutes long and teaches you how to use a grigri. I plan on taking the lead class because it is pretty cheap and will allow me to sport climb in the gym which is a next big step but I dont see a huge benefit in the trad classes which is more what I am asking about on here I guess. From what I have witnessed when they have a class in session it is really about learning the types of trad gear and then a very small amount of time on placement in a mock trad wall. Not that I couldnt learn something from that I just think there are better ways personally. Thanks for your input though and I will be researching back/z-clipping today.
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RockyBobby
Jun 4, 2013, 12:44 PM
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Kartessa wrote: Whats wrong with a structured group lesson to learn a new skill? Do you prefer trial and error?
Kartessa,
Nothing particularly wrong with it....just not my preferred avenue. Much like college didnt work for me after 7 or so years of trial and error yet I still managed to be successful and find a good job. I know there might be a time when a structured class for some aspect of climbing may be best but from what I can gather there is another way to learn this portion. I could be wrong though I suppose......
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RockyBobby
Jun 4, 2013, 12:48 PM
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rsmillbern wrote: Finding a good group can be hard. When I started climbing the NCROCK group was great, and may still be - I have been away for a few years. There does not seem to be too much activity, but they do seem to still meet for a beer once a month. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nc-rock/ Another good place to look, in my opinion, is Fox Mountain Guides. I have taken a few classes with them and been very satisfied. Yes, you have to pay, but I think it is worth it for good instruction. http://www.foxmountainguides.com/rock-climbing/rock-climbing-instruction You will find that NC has some really great and giving climbers out there, however, I think that most will not respond directly on the internet. You might have better luck on the NCROCK forum. If all else fails I would be happy to take you out. Travel expenses might cost a bit more than a class or 2 with Fox though as I don't get to NC too often ;-). Good luck and enjoy the NC climbing. I miss it.
Scott,
Thanks for the info. I will look into NCRock forum and the NCRock group. Germany is a little far to fly someone in for special instruction though......
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5.samadhi
Jun 4, 2013, 9:48 PM
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think about it this way, if you take a class and get the basics of leading out of the way thats one less thing that your mentor will have to teach to you and more time that you can work on more advanced stuff. Its not like you need 1 on 1 instruction for learning how not to backclip or z-clip.
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Kartessa
Jun 5, 2013, 3:41 AM
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5.samadhi wrote: think about it this way, if you take a class and get the basics of leading out of the way thats one less thing that your mentor will have to teach to you and more time that you can work on more advanced stuff. Its not like you need 1 on 1 instruction for learning how not to backclip or z-clip.
^^^ This
I think part of the problem is, who's going want to teach someone who can't take any initiative in their own development and need someone to hold their hand?
You could:
- buy a book to get a little theory
- take a class from someone you can (hopefully) trust that they're qualified enough to teach what they teach
Then:
- Buy a few pieces of gear and play with them at the base of a crag: Place pieces, remove them, weight test them
- Offer to follow after people... by taking out well placed gear, you'll see what well placed gear looks like
Try not to ask people to just hold your hand, the last thing I want is to use my climbing days babysitting.
But what do I know? I'm a shitty climber.
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ianwatson
Jul 10, 2013, 4:38 PM
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go to the lead class and buy this http://www.amazon.com/Mountaineering-Freedom-Hills-50th-Anniversary/dp/1594851387/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373474228&sr=8-1&keywords=freedom+of+the+hills
you will be on your way from there.
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shimanilami
Jul 10, 2013, 7:48 PM
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With all due respect to classes/books/mentors, I would suggest that you just go outside and just try it (i.e. trad climbing) yourself. Up until a few years ago, this was the standard protocol. There were no books or classes, and only the lucky ones were able to find a mentor. The rest of us simply decided that we wanted to climb and went out and did it. Most of us did not die. (Hell, how complicated can a nut or a hex or a cam be? If you can't look at a placement and know it's good even as a beginner, then trad probably isn't for you, classes/books/mentors aside.)
Obviously, you have to exercise some judgement here (e.g. don't try to climb 2 grades above your ability with gear you've never used.) But that's the whole point of learning, right - i.e. develop your own critical thinking abilities rather than relying on what the "experts" advise? In the end, you'll be a better climber for it.
And by the sound of things, this might actually be your most expedient path forward.
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RockyBobby
Jul 10, 2013, 8:33 PM
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shimanilami & ianwatson,
Thanks for the replies. This is pretty much the route I have taken. Lead class is still to come just been busy this summer. I have read "The Climber's Handbook" by Garth Hattingh several times and will be looking for another read soon(this book was just ok IMHO) . I was lucky enough to have a nice guy named Andy join up with my group last time at Crowders Mtn randombly. He climbed an easy trad route and let us TR behind it and check out all the placements and remove them. I also have another friend who has a decent amount of trad gear but no experience. We are going to try and set up a normal TR and then do a mock trad lead and try placing our own stuff. Thank you for giving some practical ideas/advice as opposed to just assuming I am asking for someone to hold my hand and show me how to climb.
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bearbreeder
Jul 10, 2013, 8:46 PM
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having someone experienced check your placements is actually pretty critical when first climbing trad
sure there were tons of people who started out trad by themselves first that lived through it ... but then in squamish ive seen over and over again beginners with shiet gear placements ... and occasionally when those people take a fall some rip out MULTIPLE pieces of gear out of solid granite
trad climbing is more than just placing gear ... its also how to belay on a trad route, how to minimize rope drag, stances, decision making, and commitment ...
now if you are an experienced sport climber the learning curve is easier ... but if you dont know how to lead climb i suggest going out with someone who knows what they are doing
honesty the beer and gas you feed someone for it ... or even the price you pay for a course is peanuts in the long run
doing things "unsafely" ... and getting yourself or others hurt are very expensive
bad habits can last a LONG time, especially if no one corrects you ... you read about those accidents all the time
drink less beer on weekends, cut out that latte, and eat mr noodles for a month ... youll find the money
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shimanilami
Jul 11, 2013, 4:48 AM
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In general, I agree with you, but I'll point out a basic assumption that the OP should be aware of. You assume that "mentors" and "experienced" climbers know what is best practice and are able to teach it. However, anyone who has been around for a while has witnessed "professionals" with very questionable practices. Perhaps some of those beginners that you saw rip out gear had been trained by these very same experts. Perhaps they had been given some basic training, then gone out into the wild thinking that they knew all they needed to; their "expert training" had given them an undue sense of confidence.
Which brings me to another point. As you say, there is more to climbing safely than simply knowing how to place gear and tie knots. Trad climbing especially requires saavy and a sense of self-preservation that cannot be taught. They can only be learned through experiences that challenge one's judgement. However, when someone hires a professional for training, that "expert" is obliged to exercise critical judgement for the student, lest the student be injured, sue the school, etc. The student, conversely, places his trust in the "expert" and risks suspending his own process of critical thought.
It doesn't happen to everyone, but in the gym-climber world of today, I see it more often than not.
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bearbreeder
Jul 11, 2013, 9:01 AM
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its an obvious risk that you may not find the most experienced or knowledgeable climber ... thats like anything else in life
short of hiring experienced guides .. you have to use your own self judgement on whether to learn from that person or not
anyone who you learn from should be able to tell you exactly why he/she does things the way they do ... and should be absolutely up front about what they know and what theyve done ...
if you find people who never lead give you advice on trad leading ... run away ... etc ...
the people who know their stuff will lead and teach by example ... that is they wont be top rope tough guys going off about this and that and how "unsafe" people are ...
what they should be doing is leading up climbs confidently, placing gear, getting you to inspect and clean it ... if they arent confident with the moderates that you will be learning on such as sketching out or getting elvis leg on a 5.7/8/9 lead .. then they arent truly "experienced" ...
the other thing is that years of experience is absolutely no guarantee of competence ... i know people who climbs for years and even decades ... they go climb outside maybe a few times a year , usually TRing easy stuff ... their real experience leading trad, especially longer stuff, is minimal
the nice thing about REALLY experienced people or the right guides is that they will tell you more than "oh just make sure the lobes look good and the rock is solid" ... because theyve climbed AND whipped on their gear over and over again in their careers ...
of course for a really experienced person who will climb with you can show you the ropes ... you need to
- feed them gas and beer ... its a courtesy
- or be a HOT chick
- be a competent LEAD belayer
- and the most important part ... be SERIOUS about climb ... none of that "oh ill go out once or twice this summer" bullshiet ... he/she is spending his/her time training you up, its not out of charity, they want a partner who will improve quickly and climb with em
the reality is though that youll likely end up hiring a guide, joining an alpine club (which is fine), meetup (questionable), or hook up with someone whos not too experienced from your gym (very questionable) ...
again ... the most IMPORTANT thing when learning trad is to have someone check you gear and systems, and follow you up your leads ... if you dont you could be doing shiet wrong for years and not realize it
thats all there is to it
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distantThunder
Jul 25, 2013, 12:33 AM
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old climber here.
but can I make one or two suggestions to you?
the two most important things I ever did in climbing:
1) LEARN to climb from really good people. Go and find a local guide company that's got some guys who are skilled climbers, really know their stuff, and are good teachers. It is invaluable. More than any other thing you will ever do - this will save your life one day! How much is your life worth? Surely it's worth enough to pay the fees of a professional climbing guide who will take you for a weekend and teach you how things are done. Really the cost is not that high, because generally one guide instructs 2-3 students. My advice is - DO IT!!
2) Buy the best gear you can reasonably afford. Your life depends on that rope, that harness, those biners, and that protection.
good luck,
dT
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bearbreeder
Jul 25, 2013, 1:02 AM
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distantThunder wrote: 2) Buy the best gear you can reasonably afford. Your life depends on that rope, that harness, those biners, and that protection. good luck, dT
no buy certified gear from decent brand companies that work .. price has no bearing
the basic 45$ BD momentum AL will hold just as well as the 150$ yuppie $$$$ dead bird harnesses ... and last longer too
my basic 85$ tendon 10mm 60m climbing rope works as well as any of my $$$$$ mammuts ...
get CERTIFIED gear from decent (not $$$$) brands and youll be fine ...
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distantThunder
Jul 26, 2013, 1:48 PM
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as far as ropes go - that is one place where I do think it pays to be picky. and usually better ropes do cost more - but it's money well paid.
the best rope I ever owned was an Edelrid. that rope was head and shoulders above any other rope because of it's "workability". it was much less prone to kinking. you'll notice it if you work with ropes a lot .... coil and uncoil them. some behave a lot better than others. it's due to the care put into the rope construction when they are made, and how parts of the rope are twisted. it's definitely worth owning a good rope - especially if you do a lot of lead climbing. there's nothing more annoying that having a problem of getting enough "rope feed" because your rope has kinked and is twisted up on a biner.
i'm not advocating that you spend money for the sake of paying high prices. but generally if you buy better climbing harnesses from well-known brands ... you are also getting better gear. more comfortable and better safety testing. so when it comes to critical items - like ropes, harnesses, locking biners (your belay biner), rappel devices - it's worth dealing with companies that have an excellent reputation. IMO.
dT
(This post was edited by distantThunder on Jul 26, 2013, 1:49 PM)
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bearbreeder
Jul 26, 2013, 6:37 PM
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any decent brand they sell at MEC will work just fine
i had an edelrid last year ... the sheath blew in exactly 3 days
by comparison my el cheapo 85$ rope has lasted through 1000 pitches of whippers, multi, TR gangbangs, etc ... everywhere from the rockies to yosemite to squamish
and it feeds better than most mammuts ... especially in assisted locking devices
and im a guy whos owned 6+ mammuts
for a beginner a $$$$$ rope is a waste
money is NO judge of climbing gear ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 26, 2013, 6:37 PM)
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Kartessa
Jul 26, 2013, 10:30 PM
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I hate to do this, but I'll agree with the bear f**ker.
Don't buy big name expensive stuff to start out. Dropping $150 on a harness or $250 on a first rope is nonsense. Yes, they are very fancy, high-tech, pretty products, but for a n00b, they're a waste of money.
First take the time to learn, and when you're ready, buy gear from the reputable companies that's appropriate for what you're doing. Talk to whoever you're learning from, they can help you get what you need.
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distantThunder
Jul 26, 2013, 11:55 PM
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"i had an edelrid last year ... the sheath blew in exactly 3 days "
That really SHOULDN'T happen. Seriously.
Did you take photo's of the rope and show it to Edelrid? The company has been in business a long time - I would think they would take the problem very seriously. Assuming that you were not doing something unusual (like self-belaying with ascenders with teeth), I would think they would replace that rope.
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bearbreeder
Jul 27, 2013, 12:42 AM
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i took it back to MEC which has a "rock solid guarantee" and let them deal with it
probably 10+ people i know have and use the 85$ el cheapo rope ... some take whippers all the time on it ... everyone agrees that its the best cheap rope on the market for that price
for a beginner a $$$$$ rope is a waste ... and even for many who arent beginners
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