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jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 5:01 PM
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EDK Anchor
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Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.


(This post was edited by jberk on Jun 8, 2013, 5:14 PM)


billl7


Jun 8, 2013, 6:34 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 8, 2013, 6:34 PM)


dagibbs


Jun 8, 2013, 6:52 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Assuming you're trying to make a loop, yes an over-hand knot (AKA an EDK), backed up with another over-hand knot will work quite fine.

If they've been weighted a time or two, they also get hard to untie, of course.


jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 7:20 PM
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Re: [billl7] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?
Yup, tying to ends of my cordelette together.


billl7


Jun 8, 2013, 7:27 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?
Yup, tying to ends of my cordelette together.
... and there are many ways to use a cordelette for a top rope anchor. Sometimes, one can even rig the anchor with it without directly joining the two ends together. What's your plan?

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 8, 2013, 7:30 PM)


jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 7:43 PM
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Re: [billl7] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?
Yup, tying to ends of my cordelette together.
... and there are many ways to use a cordelette for a top rope anchor. Sometimes, one can even rig the anchor with it without directly joining the two ends together. What's your plan?

Bill L

I am a little confusing what you mean. I am building an anchor out of three pieces of trad. Does this answer your question? Thanks.


billl7


Jun 8, 2013, 7:47 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?
Yup, tying to ends of my cordelette together.
... and there are many ways to use a cordelette for a top rope anchor. Sometimes, one can even rig the anchor with it without directly joining the two ends together. What's your plan?

Bill L

I am a little confusing what you mean. I am building an anchor out of three pieces of trad. Does this answer your question? Thanks.
Configured roughly like this?



jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 7:51 PM
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Re: [billl7] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
billl7 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

Is this to tie the cordelette in a loop? Or something else?
Yup, tying to ends of my cordelette together.
... and there are many ways to use a cordelette for a top rope anchor. Sometimes, one can even rig the anchor with it without directly joining the two ends together. What's your plan?

Bill L

I am a little confusing what you mean. I am building an anchor out of three pieces of trad. Does this answer your question? Thanks.
Configured roughly like this?
[image]http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette6l.JPG[/image]

Exactly, if you swap out the runner for a chordelette.


billl7


Jun 8, 2013, 8:00 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Well, if you really need to not have a knot there when you're done for the day and if your cord is long enough ...

* pretend there is a fourth piece of gear;
* when you thread the cord through the pieces, leave the two ends in the vicinity of the imaginary fourth piece;
* tie the power point's knot as shown in the picture.

The two ends are then isolated from any load by the power point's knot. You can tie them together however you like and it does not matter or leave them free. They will never see a load.

Bill L

P.S. Personally, I just tie the double fishermans and rarely untie it.


jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 8:09 PM
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Re: [billl7] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
Well, if you really need to not have a knot there when you're done for the day and if your cord is long enough ...

* pretend there is a fourth piece of gear;
* when you thread the cord through the pieces, leave the two ends in the vicinity of the imaginary fourth piece;
* tie the power point's knot as shown in the picture.

The two ends are then isolated from any load by the power point's knot. You can tie them together however you like and it does not matter or leave them free. They will never see a load.

Bill L

P.S. Personally, I just tie the double fishermans and rarely untie it.

This sounds like a great option, but I am concerned with how much tail I would have to leave if I dont knot the chordelette. Plus there is something psychologically screaming at me when I conceptualize an open ended rope on an anchor, regardless of how safe it is. I like the idea of a permanent double fisherman's but at enchanted rock I often need to tie anchors using a bowline knot. Do you have any other suggestions? Are you deliberately staying away from the double EDK because your concerned with its safety?


(This post was edited by jberk on Jun 8, 2013, 8:13 PM)


billl7


Jun 8, 2013, 8:15 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Are you breathlessly staying away from the double EDK because your concerned with its safety?
Yes, I stay away from it for that application because many of my anchors are high above the deck. There are much stronger knots.

Bill L

Edit: What I mean is ... high above the deck where I want them to be able to withstand a leader fall right onto the anchor.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 8, 2013, 8:20 PM)


jt512


Jun 8, 2013, 11:28 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

I don't know whether it's safe or not, but I know it's foolish. The double fisherman's knot tightens under tension, which is exactly the behavior you want in a cordelette knot. And, no, it is not significantly more difficult to untie after it has been weighted.

Stick with time-tested methods. Resist the temptation to gumby innovate.


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 8, 2013, 11:28 PM)


jberk


Jun 8, 2013, 11:43 PM
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Re: [jt512] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jberk wrote:
Hey I was wondering if it is safe to use an EDK (backed up with a second EDK) in a cordelette anchor toprope? I know that I can use a double fishermans but it tends to be a real pain to untie if weighted. Thanks.

I don't know whether it's safe or not, but I know it's foolish. The double fisherman's knot tightens under tension, which is exactly the behavior you want in a cordelette knot. And, no, it is not significantly more difficult to untie after it has been weighted.

Stick with time-tested methods. Resist the temptation to gumby innovate.
I do agree that the double fisherman's is safer but I strongly disagree that it is as easy to untie. This is not only my personal experience but reiterated in almost every guidebook and knot tying website. http://www.animatedknots.com even gos so far to say that the two ends can effectively become "welded". It can be extremely foolish for me to risk my cordelette locking up on a multi-pitch especially if I later need to tie a bowline on a later pitch if an overhand backed up with an overhand will suffice. Of course that is the big question that I am trying to figure out.


swaghole


Jun 9, 2013, 4:01 AM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
I do agree that the double fisherman's is safer but I strongly disagree that it is as easy to untie. This is not only my personal experience but reiterated in almost every guidebook and knot tying website. http://www.animatedknots.com even gos so far to say that the two ends can effectively become "welded". It can be extremely foolish for me to risk my cordelette locking up on a multi-pitch especially if I later need to tie a bowline on a later pitch if an overhand backed up with an overhand will suffice. Of course that is the big question that I am trying to figure out.

Instead of climbing wiht a cordelette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordelette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end. It is just as versatile as a looped cordelette and can be easily configured to join a 3 or 4 piece anchor or can be doubled up for redundancy. In this configuration, the cordelette can be used setting up pulley systems or, in your case, for tying your bowline when needed. If you really must undo all knots, the figure 8 does come undone more easily than a double-fisherman (IMO), even more if you use a Yosemite finish.
Just my 2 cents...


padlinfool


Jun 9, 2013, 6:51 AM
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Re: [swaghole] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs.

You could just NOT tie the cordelette into a loop.... by pulling the loose ends through the one main knot.

Pretty easy to do.
-Grab both ends together (creating an imaginary loop).
-Clip your pieces and pull down the loops to your loose ends. You can adjust the length of the loops by pulling slack on loose ends(great feature).
-Tie your knot (8 or overhand) with the loops and loose ends.
-Tighten and dress....even the loose ends

You will end up with double strands to all pieces (with no knots), a big knot, 2 loop masterpoint (for a 3 piece anchor) plus the loose ends exiting from the bottom of the knot.

Credit to knudenoggin for this concept.


(This post was edited by padlinfool on Jun 9, 2013, 6:56 AM)


acorneau


Jun 9, 2013, 7:33 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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padlinfool wrote:
swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs.

You're missing the concept of clipping the two ends to the same piece and then continuing the regular cordelette system as usual. That yields the same result as a looped cord but without actually having the two ends tied together.


bearbreeder


Jun 9, 2013, 7:40 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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padlinfool wrote:
swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs..

equalization is basically a myth with cords anchors anyways, especially if every leg is not exactly the same length

the advantage of the doubled strand is that you can choose which piece likely sees the most load

for the OP ... it all depends on how you use the cord ... if you arent tying off the masterpoint with a big knot, ie, you cant with a big tree anchor/bolder ... the overhand can capsize at lower loads than the fishermans ...

if however youre doing it the same way as shown in this video then yr fine ... as its the big masterpoint knot that keeps then strand toghether

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c

with thinner techcord and other such ... use a triple fishermans

Wink


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 8:33 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
padlinfool wrote:
swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs..

equalization is basically a myth with cords anchors anyways, especially if every leg is not exactly the same length

the advantage of the doubled strand is that you can choose which piece likely sees the most load

for the OP ... it all depends on how you use the cord ... if you arent tying off the masterpoint with a big knot, ie, you cant with a big tree anchor/bolder ... the overhand can capsize at lower loads than the fishermans ...

if however youre doing it the same way as shown in this video then yr fine ... as its the big masterpoint knot that keeps then strand toghether

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c

with thinner techcord and other such ... use a triple fishermans

Wink
My only concern with this method (video) is that it looks like it can be easy to miss tie. One of the reasons i like the overhand/edk backed up with another overhand is that you could do it in your sleep. When you say the "overhand capsizes at lower loads" does this include a backed up overhand knot? I have a 6mm powercord cordelette and leave about 6inch of tail with the backed up overhand. Is this safe?


bearbreeder


Jun 9, 2013, 9:20 AM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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for power cord, if its spectra/dyneema id use a tripple fishermans ...realistically unless you need to keep untie and retying it to sling trees/boulders, you arent going to untie it that much


or tie fig8s/tripple barrels at each end and use the cord like this ... put the doubled strand on the strongest piece




dont overthink it ...

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 9, 2013, 9:27 AM)


jt512


Jun 9, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Re: [swaghole] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
jberk wrote:
I do agree that the double fisherman's is safer but I strongly disagree that it is as easy to untie. This is not only my personal experience but reiterated in almost every guidebook and knot tying website. http://www.animatedknots.com even gos so far to say that the two ends can effectively become "welded". It can be extremely foolish for me to risk my cordelette locking up on a multi-pitch especially if I later need to tie a bowline on a later pitch if an overhand backed up with an overhand will suffice. Of course that is the big question that I am trying to figure out.

Instead of climbing wiht a cordelette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordelette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end..

Ah, yes, the ol' deatholette resurfaces. It has half the strength of a cordelette tied in a loop.


bearbreeder


Jun 9, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: [jt512] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Ah, yes, the ol' deatholette resurfaces. It has half the strength of a cordelette tied in a loop.

irrelevant for climbing in the real world ... use 7mm+ cord or higher stength cord, and make sure yr masterpoint has doubled strands and youll be fine

Wink


swaghole


Jun 9, 2013, 11:03 AM
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jt512 wrote:
swaghole wrote:
jberk wrote:
I do agree that the double fisherman's is safer but I strongly disagree that it is as easy to untie. This is not only my personal experience but reiterated in almost every guidebook and knot tying website. http://www.animatedknots.com even gos so far to say that the two ends can effectively become "welded". It can be extremely foolish for me to risk my cordelette locking up on a multi-pitch especially if I later need to tie a bowline on a later pitch if an overhand backed up with an overhand will suffice. Of course that is the big question that I am trying to figure out.

Instead of climbing wiht a cordelette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordelette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end..

Ah, yes, the ol' deatholette resurfaces. It has half the strength of a cordelette tied in a loop.

If you use it doubled-up, why would it be half the strength?


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
for power cord, if its spectra/dyneema id use a tripple fishermans ...realistically unless you need to keep untie and retying it to sling trees/boulders, you arent going to untie it that much


or tie fig8s/tripple barrels at each end and use the cord like this ... put the doubled strand on the strongest piece

[image]http://www.supertopo.com/photos/4/72/168688_20031_XL.jpg[/image]


dont overthink it ...

Tongue
So the cordelette is not dyneema its good old fashioned nylon. I do tend to need to tie it around rocks (I do trad climbing at enchanted rock) so I do have to be able to have both ends accessible for a bowline. I have never seen the tripple barrels used in an anchor and it does look quite safe and redundant, but I have read in a bunch of guidebooks that you do loose a good amount of strength if the cordelette is not tied. It does concern me though that I am opening up another possible failure knot (2 ends as opposed to the ends tied together). I am looking for something bomber. I cant seem to find a good amount of studies on the EDK and the ones I do find do not test it with it backed up with an overhand. Maybe its just because I am new to climbing and just have to accept that there is no 100% when it comes to climbing.


Partner rgold


Jun 9, 2013, 12:28 PM
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If you are setting up toprope anchors, then you really ought to be using larger-diameter rope or wider webbing than is typically used for a cordelette, and you wouldn't typically keep such materials knotted.

If you are speaking of trad anchors, then you can almost always use the climbing rope itself to tie into large rocks and trees.

Conclusion: the only time you really have to untie a cordelette is either for rescue and/or emergency retreat purposes, in which case cutting off the knot is probably the best thing to do.

In view of these considerations, I'd use a double fisherman's. It is compact, strong, and it won't work loose when you aren't looking.


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 12:37 PM
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rgold wrote:
If you are setting up toprope anchors, then you really ought to be using larger-diameter rope or wider webbing than is typically used for a cordelette, and you wouldn't typically keep such materials knotted.

If you are speaking of trad anchors, then you can almost always use the climbing rope itself to tie into large rocks and trees.

Conclusion: the only time you really have to untie a cordelette is either for rescue and/or emergency retreat purposes, in which case cutting off the knot is probably the best thing to do.

In view of these considerations, I'd use a double fisherman's. It is compact, strong, and it won't work loose when you aren't looking.
So I do switch often between using my cordelette as a normal 3 point anchor and using it with a boline around a fixed point plus another anchor. I do need the flexibility. Honestly I am not woried about gear failure. The cord is rated at 19KN (4,800LBS) and is think enough that I am not concerned about friction.

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