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Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws
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RomanG1


Jun 12, 2013, 8:55 AM
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Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws
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I have been searching but cant find a place to buy them. My alpine draws are slings with two biners, however i want to put the rubber holders for the biners on the rope end.

Im aware of the dangers in doing this with open slings. I believe most who climb trad use the rubber holders as far as i noticed.

Do you guys use them? Or are your apline draws just two biners and a runner?

Where can i buy some?

Found this pic in another thread:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/carabiners-for-tradalpine-draws/107959921#a_107959979
Attachments: 107959976_medium_0fbf65.jpg (89.0 KB)


mojomonkey


Jun 12, 2013, 9:27 AM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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RomanG1 wrote:
I have been searching but cant find a place to buy them. My alpine draws are slings with two biners, however i want to put the rubber holders for the biners on the rope end.

Im aware of the dangers in doing this with open slings. I believe most who climb trad use the rubber holders as far as i noticed.

Do you guys use them? Or are your apline draws just two biners and a runner?

Where can i buy some?

Found this pic in another thread:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/carabiners-for-tradalpine-draws/107959921#a_107959979

Your picture just looks like a rubber ring. The version made for quickdraws is the PETZL String. I don't see most trad climbers using them on open slings. I've never found the biner movement a big enough issue to need a solution, particularly given the possible failure.


shimanilami


Jun 12, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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I wouldn't recommend this. It's easy to screw up and the consequences are potentially fatal.

I can appreciate the desire for neatness and convenience, but it's not worth it.


csproul


Jun 12, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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I have used them in the past. I have used both heavy duty rubber bands (the ones that hold a bunch of broccoli) and have used commercially available ones (like Petzl strings). I do not use them anymore and I rarely see people that do. The risks are not worth the benefit IMO. If clipping is that difficult that I want the biner to stay put, I am almost certainly using a quickdraw and not a runner.

BTW, I beleive you can buy slings that are sewn loops at each end and not one continuous loop (eg Metolius Rabbit Runners or Long Draws). If you insist on using a band to hold the biner in place, it might be a good idea to consider using one of these instead. IMO, I'd rather keep the looped runners and not use the band/string. I do find the Metolius Long Draws useful for some of the climbing around here...not as long as a full runner, but longer and more flexible than a quickdraw while still keeping the biners somewhat tight.


UpToTheOzone


Jun 12, 2013, 2:44 PM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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DON'T DO IT!

During a strenuous clip, putting the biner in your mouth while reaching for the rope is half the fun anyways!


shockabuku


Jun 12, 2013, 7:45 PM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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I've seen a couple with home made substitutes (tape, rubber bands) and tried it briefly myself. They're counterproductive. I tore them off mid-route so many times that I gave it up.


ACJ


Jun 13, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Re: [RomanG1] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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I use the petzl string for my trad draws. I understand the risks involved and still prefer having them. If you do it just play around with them and learn how to make them work and fail so they are easy to recognize in the field.


mikebee


Jun 13, 2013, 9:21 PM
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Re: [ACJ] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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Never bothered with this.
As has been said, if the clip is sketchy enough that this would be a good idea, then you'll probably use a quickdraw instead anyway.

Keep It Simple is a good motto for ideas like this.


RomanG1


Jun 14, 2013, 6:25 AM
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Re: [mikebee] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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Thanks guys. I guess it makes sense.


OCPik4chu


Sep 13, 2013, 3:46 PM
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Re: [mikebee] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
Never bothered with this.
As has been said, if the clip is sketchy enough that this would be a good idea, then you'll probably use a quickdraw instead anyway.

Keep It Simple is a good motto for ideas like this.
Pardon my ignorance but can someone explain why using these are so dangerous? Is it under the assumption that someone could connect the runner improperly so its not actually on the biner or something? Isnt it basically the same thing as the rubber holder that is common on some Petzl dogbones? I don't use them myself but I fail to see how they could be so dangerous.


markcarlson


Sep 13, 2013, 4:04 PM
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Re: [OCPik4chu] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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OCPik4chu wrote:
Pardon my ignorance but can someone explain why using these are so dangerous? Is it under the assumption that someone could connect the runner improperly so its not actually on the biner or something? Isnt it basically the same thing as the rubber holder that is common on some Petzl dogbones? I don't use them myself but I fail to see how they could be so dangerous.

See the bottom-right scenario on the last page in this document: STRING Product Experience.

It is generally not possible to do that with Petzl dogbones. People occasionally do it with runners. Normally, you notice it when it happens to a runner because your carabiner is obviously not connected to the sling any more. With the rubber holder on, it is not quite as obvious.


qtm


Sep 15, 2013, 8:04 PM
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Re: [markcarlson] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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And here's the video.

http://vimeo.com/4138205


OCPik4chu


Sep 16, 2013, 8:09 AM
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Re: [markcarlson] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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Ah ok I guess that is all that had come to mind so I was wondering if I was missing something else. So it shard to see if the biner is connected properly and the stiffness in the connection makes it more possible for the sling to slip through the gate in the event of...shock loading I guess? Am I on track with my thoughts here? I dont use rubber bands on open slings at all but I do still have a few draws with the rubber holder. Though looks like based on that Petzl document that there should never be a holder on the 'bolt' side of the draw. Which is interesting because Ive seen quite a few people with that setup, or with a rubber holder on both sides.


markcarlson


Sep 16, 2013, 8:44 AM
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Re: [OCPik4chu] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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Yes, it is primarily to prevent accidents that occur as a result of improperly clipping the sling.

As for people who have the rubber holders on both sides... Well... Climb long enough and you will see far stranger things.


rocknice2


Sep 16, 2013, 8:49 AM
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Re: [OCPik4chu] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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OCPik4chu wrote:
Ah ok I guess that is all that had come to mind so I was wondering if I was missing something else. So it shard to see if the biner is connected properly and the stiffness in the connection makes it more possible for the sling to slip through the gate in the event of...shock loading I guess? Am I on track with my thoughts here? I dont use rubber bands on open slings at all but I do still have a few draws with the rubber holder. Though looks like based on that Petzl document that there should never be a holder on the 'bolt' side of the draw. Which is interesting because Ive seen quite a few people with that setup, or with a rubber holder on both sides.

No your confusing a few issues.

For sport draws [sewn closed slings] you want the rubber on the bottom biner [rope side] and none on the top biner [bolt side]. It's important to assemble the draw properly. The stiffness in the rope end of a sport draw makes it easier to clip a rope and keeps the biner properly orientated . You don't want stiffness on the bolt side because it can wrench the biner in funny ways along the hanger.

For Trad draws [open slings] you don't want any rubber at all. This is because when you triple up the sling for racking it's possible to clip the biner improperly resulting in a sling that has a biner attached only by a rubber band.


OCPik4chu


Sep 16, 2013, 10:52 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
OCPik4chu wrote:
Ah ok I guess that is all that had come to mind so I was wondering if I was missing something else. So it shard to see if the biner is connected properly and the stiffness in the connection makes it more possible for the sling to slip through the gate in the event of...shock loading I guess? Am I on track with my thoughts here? I dont use rubber bands on open slings at all but I do still have a few draws with the rubber holder. Though looks like based on that Petzl document that there should never be a holder on the 'bolt' side of the draw. Which is interesting because Ive seen quite a few people with that setup, or with a rubber holder on both sides.

No your confusing a few issues.

For sport draws [sewn closed slings] you want the rubber on the bottom biner [rope side] and none on the top biner [bolt side]. It's important to assemble the draw properly. The stiffness in the rope end of a sport draw makes it easier to clip a rope and keeps the biner properly orientated . You don't want stiffness on the bolt side because it can wrench the biner in funny ways along the hanger.

For Trad draws [open slings] you don't want any rubber at all. This is because when you triple up the sling for racking it's possible to clip the biner improperly resulting in a sling that has a biner attached only by a rubber band.

Sorry I guess I just wasn't clear, I was running two issues together in my response and I understand it's two separate problems. My draws are setup correctly, I've just seen a number of people that didnt do it right. And I never user rubber bands on open slings.


fng


Sep 23, 2013, 9:06 AM
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Re: [OCPik4chu] Rubber Holders for Alpine / Trad draws [In reply to]
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Only ever used them for sport on nylon sewn slings that were longer than my draws(8"-12"). I just used used my daughters hair bands (basically a rubber band with a material over them). Always worked fine. Never on trad draws.


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