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What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed?
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cmn003


Jun 16, 2013, 1:37 PM
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What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed?
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Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!


dagibbs


Jun 16, 2013, 3:09 PM
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Re: [cmn003] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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Generally speaking, no.


csproul


Jun 17, 2013, 7:06 AM
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Re: [cmn003] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.


dagibbs


Jun 17, 2013, 5:54 PM
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Re: [csproul] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.

I always thought a pink point was climbing a gear route with the gear pre-placed. That would make a lot more difference than pre-hung draws on a sport route.


kennoyce


Jun 18, 2013, 5:55 AM
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Re: [dagibbs] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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dagibbs wrote:
csproul wrote:
cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.

I always thought a pink point was climbing a gear route with the gear pre-placed. That would make a lot more difference than pre-hung draws on a sport route.

That is also correct, but in the context of sport climbing, back in the day, pink point was also used to denote pre-hung draws. Today, most people realize that since you didn't place the bolt on lead, it makes no difference if the draw is pre-hung or not.


Partner cracklover


Jun 18, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [kennoyce] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
csproul wrote:
cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.

I always thought a pink point was climbing a gear route with the gear pre-placed. That would make a lot more difference than pre-hung draws on a sport route.

That is also correct, but in the context of sport climbing, back in the day, pink point was also used to denote pre-hung draws. Today, most people realize that since you didn't place the bolt on lead, it makes no difference if the draw is pre-hung or not.

Actually, no. Most short climbers know it often *does* make a difference whether the bolts are clipped or not. It's simply that a redpoint has been re-defined to include the (optimal length) draws as part of the "fixed" gear.

GO


kennoyce


Jun 18, 2013, 10:12 AM
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Re: [cracklover] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
csproul wrote:
cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.

I always thought a pink point was climbing a gear route with the gear pre-placed. That would make a lot more difference than pre-hung draws on a sport route.

That is also correct, but in the context of sport climbing, back in the day, pink point was also used to denote pre-hung draws. Today, most people realize that since you didn't place the bolt on lead, it makes no difference if the draw is pre-hung or not.

Actually, no. Most short climbers know it often *does* make a difference whether the bolts are clipped or not. It's simply that a redpoint has been re-defined to include the (optimal length) draws as part of the "fixed" gear.

GO

You're right Gabe, I guess I worded that wrong, what I meant to say is that since you didn't place the bolt on lead, you didn't place the protection on lead, so you don't have to place the draw to get the redpoint. Having the right length draw pre-hung can certainly make the clip much easier, even for us non-short climbers.


jomagam


Jun 18, 2013, 10:18 AM
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Re: [cracklover] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Actually, no. Most short climbers know it often *does* make a difference whether the bolts are clipped or not. It's simply that a redpoint has been re-defined to include the (optimal length) draws as part of the "fixed" gear.

+1. It also makes a difference on overhanging routes with not great clipping positions. You're hanging on one hand for an extra couple of seconds with every clip if you have to place the draw.


Fred20


Jun 18, 2013, 11:04 AM
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Re: [cmn003] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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i think the term is DIFFICULT!...weee

but seriously, obviously it is more difficult to place the quickdraws and then clip (as stated above), than to simply clip a draw that's already been placed.

I don't get caught up in stupid terms for it though. A funny example was a friend stick clipped the first bolt on a climb that had a sketchy first clip, another person climbing with us busted his balls about it being red or pink or "copper"...and the hypocrit could barely climb the route and was grabbing dog bones, grant it...he mostly does trad I guess.

Was funny to hear the "discussion" about what they wanted to call the climb that he used the stick on though...

A pre-set route of draws can definitely be the difference to sending though, especially for the shorter folks out there that can have some great difficulty reaching the bolts.

Of course, I'm not all that into the grading's either, some folks are, I climb cause it's fun! Wink


mojomonkey


Jun 19, 2013, 4:08 AM
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Re: [Fred20] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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Fred20 wrote:
Of course, I'm not all that into the grading's either, some folks are, I climb cause it's fun! Wink

You probably don't even own a TV.


csproul


Jun 19, 2013, 6:57 AM
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Re: [cracklover] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
csproul wrote:
cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!
Climbing with the draws already hung was originally called a pink-point...but this term is largely gone the way of the dinosaur, and the few that still use the term are headed that way soon.

I always thought a pink point was climbing a gear route with the gear pre-placed. That would make a lot more difference than pre-hung draws on a sport route.

That is also correct, but in the context of sport climbing, back in the day, pink point was also used to denote pre-hung draws. Today, most people realize that since you didn't place the bolt on lead, it makes no difference if the draw is pre-hung or not.

Actually, no. Most short climbers know it often *does* make a difference whether the bolts are clipped or not. It's simply that a redpoint has been re-defined to include the (optimal length) draws as part of the "fixed" gear.

GO
^^This is correct. Of course clipping draws does make sport climbing harder, but who cares? Sport climbing is intended to make climbing harder, not clipping. Back when Angry was on here, used to say that climbing while squeezing a quarter between your ass cheeks would make sport climbing harder too...but who cares!


Fred20


Jun 19, 2013, 7:39 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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I'll bite...

i will say it is pretty annoying to hear people talk about whether a route is a 5.10 a/b/c/d ...climb the fvcking thing or don't, the grades are good to a point, but are pretty subjective IMO... some moves are easier to some people and more difficult to others

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


marc801


Jun 19, 2013, 7:54 AM
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Re: [Fred20] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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Fred20 wrote:
I'll bite...

i will say it is pretty annoying to hear people talk about whether a route is a 5.10 a/b/c/d ...climb the fvcking thing or don't, the grades are good to a point, but are pretty subjective IMO... some moves are easier to some people and more difficult to others

Thank you so much for this startling revelation that has never ever been mentioned before. Grades are a consensus rating. You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.


Fred20


Jun 19, 2013, 8:18 AM
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Re: [marc801] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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you're very welcome!


(This post was edited by Fred20 on Jun 19, 2013, 8:19 AM)


Fred20


Jun 19, 2013, 8:26 AM
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Re: [csproul] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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awesome comment, i'm going to be sure to bring quarters for everyone on my next trip!!!


jt512


Jun 19, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Re: [marc801] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 19, 2013, 10:30 AM)


marc801


Jun 19, 2013, 10:49 AM
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Re: [jt512] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?
Never said that it would lead to consensus, but consensus is impossible without talking about it.


Partner cracklover


Jun 19, 2013, 12:51 PM
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Re: [jt512] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?

When? On every FA I've ever done, and also on lots of climbs where I've been an early ascent on FA's that friends of mine have done.

GO


lkeegan


Jun 19, 2013, 1:10 PM
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Re: [cracklover] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?

When? On every FA I've ever done, and also on lots of climbs where I've been an early ascent on FA's that friends of mine have done.

GO


I glanced at your post without reading the quotes and thought you were talking about putting a quarter between your ass cheeks on every FA you've ever done. That would be far more note worthy than talking to your friends about what you think the grade is.


jt512


Jun 19, 2013, 7:59 PM
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Re: [cracklover] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?

When? On every FA I've ever done, and also on lots of climbs where I've been an early ascent on FA's that friends of mine have done.

GO

So if I go and climb all your routes, I'm going to agree on every rating?


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 19, 2013, 8:00 PM)


csproul


Jun 20, 2013, 4:51 AM
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Re: [jt512] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?

When? On every FA I've ever done, and also on lots of climbs where I've been an early ascent on FA's that friends of mine have done.

GO

So if I go and climb all your routes, I'm going to agree on every rating?

Only if you talk about it.


Partner cracklover


Jun 20, 2013, 8:32 AM
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Re: [jt512] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
You don't get consensus unless you talk about grades.

Whenever did talking about a grade lead to consensus?

When? On every FA I've ever done, and also on lots of climbs where I've been an early ascent on FA's that friends of mine have done.

GO

So if I go and climb all your routes, I'm going to agree on every rating?

No offense, but you are not required to build a consensus. Tongue

However by discussing the grade with your group of partners, you may very well reach your own consensus. Over time, if enough such groups reach a larger consensus, and there is significant difference between the larger consensus and the original grade, the grade may change. So don't feel bad about being left out.

And, actually, full disclosure requires me to mention: There is one route - it was one of my first - where I did not do this. The guidebook author was rushing me to finish my routes in the area, as the book was going to the printers soon. I finally sent the route, and submitted the name and grade to the author without getting anyone else on the route. Shortly thereafter I learned that someone found much better beta than I did for the crux. Now my inflated grade is forever memorialized in the guidebook, making me look like the weakling that I am.

At least I learned my lesson early on.

GO


chris


Jun 20, 2013, 9:30 AM
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Re: [cmn003] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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cmn003 wrote:
Is there a different term for sport climbing when the quickdraws have already been placed on the first lead? (Similar to how finishing the climbs is considered a redpoint and a pinkpoint, respectively)

Or maybe I'm missing some terminology understand here, help me out :)

Thanks guys!

Not to ruin the fun, but I'm going to address the OP.

Historically, "red point" came into use in the 1970's to denote that an already established aid climb could be climbed free. In the 1980's it came to represent that someone had climbed a route after multiple attempts (and hanging).

I read somewhere (and I'm trying to find the source) that the term "pink point" was first used in jest for someone who climbed a route with pre-placed gear or quickdraws. For a while in the late 1980's (maybe even in the 1990's), magazine used this distinction.

But with 5.14+ and 5.15 climbing becoming more and more common (relative to 20 years ago), pre-placed draws are becoming more and more common. The magazines stopped making the "red point" versus "pink point" distinction. On gear routes, its simply stated today that it was climbed on pre-placed gear.


(This post was edited by chris on Jun 20, 2013, 9:31 AM)


olderic


Jun 20, 2013, 10:26 AM
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Re: [chris] What type of climbing is it when the quickdraws are already placed? [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
Not to ruin the fun, but I'm going to address the OP.

Historically, "red point" came into use in the 1970's to denote that an already established aid climb could be climbed free. In the 1980's it came to represent that someone had climbed a route after multiple attempts (and hanging).

I read somewhere (and I'm trying to find the source) that the term "pink point" was first used in jest for someone who climbed a route with pre-placed gear or quickdraws. For a while in the late 1980's (maybe even in the 1990's), magazine used this distinction.

But with 5.14+ and 5.15 climbing becoming more and more common (relative to 20 years ago), pre-placed draws are becoming more and more common. The magazines stopped making the "red point" versus "pink point" distinction. On gear routes, its simply stated today that it was climbed on pre-placed gear.

Actually in the 70's the phrase "redpoint" hadn't been coined yet because Kurt hadn't started painting his circles - but as you say the sentiment was there and the lingo was "FFA" (First free Ascent as opposed to First Female Ascent)


dynosore


Jun 20, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Serious question: if you're going to pre-place draws, why not just top rope the route? You're really only pretending to "lead" at that point anyways.

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