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majid_sabet


Jun 17, 2013, 8:42 AM
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Rock climbers injured in 25-foot fall at Acadia/Rope broke
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The man and woman were rock climbing around 10 a.m. with a local guide who, along with the man, fell about 25 feet down a sheer rock face onto rocks below, Ranger Richard Rechholtz said Sunday. The guide was unhurt in the fall, he said.

Either the man or the guide — Rechholtz said he wasn’t sure which one — struck the woman, who was below them when the rope broke. All three people were wearing helmets at the time, the ranger said.

http://bangordailynews.com/...t-in-fall-at-acadia/

later;

By Colin A. Young, Globe Correspondent

Two rock climbers from the Boston area were injured when one of the climbers and a guide fell more than 20 feet off a cliff, landing on the other climber, in Acadia National Park near Bar Harbor, Maine, officials said.

After the fall on Sunday, the injured climbers waited for more than three hours at the base of the seaside cliff as rescuers worked to remove them without causing further injuries. Bar Harbor Fire Chief Matt Bartlett said the injuries appeared to be serious but not life-threatening.

The climbers, a male and female, were climbing Otter Cliff, a popular climbing spot in the national park, Sunday morning with the help of a guide from Acadia Mountain Guides, a climbing school. The male climber and the guide were on the rock face when the climbing rope all three were tethered to broke after rubbing against a rock ledge, according to Jon Tierney, owner of the climbing school.

“Basically, they had a rope cut above the point where the three people were secured to the rope,” said Tierney, who said he’s climbed Otter Cliff about 100 times a year for the last 20 years.

The male climber and the guide fell off the side of the cliff, a drop of about 22 feet, Tierney said. The female climber was at the base of the cliff, waiting for instruction from the guide, he said.

“She was on the ground below. She was the one having difficulty. The guide went down to coach her through a difficult move and when the guide fell, it ended up pulling the other climber off with him,” he said.

The male climber suffered a broken arm and a concussion, while the female sustained a hip injury, according to the Coast Guard, which assisted in the rescue. The guide fell onto the female, Tierney said, but he was not injured beyond “scrapes and bruises,” he said.

Rescuing the climbers took three to four hours, Tierney said, and involved lowering down a basket for each patient to be lifted out in.

“The biggest challenge for the [rescuers] was that they had two patients, which is unusual, so they had to extricate two people,” Tierney said. “It just takes a little while to get the resources there and to do it in a way that protects the injured climbers.”

Both climbers were transported to Maine Coast Memorial Hospital, according to Bartlett.

Bartlett said his department typically conducts or assists in 20 to 30 rescues at Acadia National Park each summer.

“This type of situation is nothing that can be rushed into because of the technical aspect of it,” he said. “None of it is ever routine, but I think things went very well.”


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 18, 2013, 11:13 AM)


marc801


Jun 17, 2013, 8:54 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rock climbers injured in 25-foot fall at Acadia/Rope broke [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The rope appears to have broken because it wore through while rubbing against a sharp rock, he said.
One wonders if it was webbing and not rope.


majid_sabet


Jun 17, 2013, 10:04 AM
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On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?


Gmburns2000


Jun 17, 2013, 12:33 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?

From what I've heard it was the rope, but just to answer your question: you need to extend at Otter Cliffs. Belaying from the top is most common, and normally the belayor is hanging over the edge.


majid_sabet


Jun 17, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?

From what I've heard it was the rope, but just to answer your question: you need to extend at Otter Cliffs. Belaying from the top is most common, and normally the belayor is hanging over the edge.

well, chances of webbing failure in well made anchor is very low since webbing is made of static material with little or no elongation and most people make their anchors out of multi layer of webbing and or low diameter static cordelette and in many cases, the anchor is fixed and pointed in one direction with min movement especially in TR setup.

on the other hand, the TR rope is in a dynamic situation with climber moving and changing positions regularly, placing rope in greater risks and hazards and based on history and statistic, I'll put my best guess that was a rope failure as well.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 17, 2013, 9:14 PM)


gunkiemike


Jun 17, 2013, 2:38 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rock climbers injured in 25-foot fall at Acadia/Rope broke [In reply to]
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The vast majority of climbing at Otter Cliffs (based on my visits there anyway) is "top managed" TR. Lowering over an edge is common, as are belayers hanging over the edge. Certainly greater likelihood of rope damage there than at a more typical bottom-manged TR crag.

Hope everyone recovers fully.


Gmburns2000


Jun 17, 2013, 3:29 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rock climbers injured in 25-foot fall at Acadia/Rope broke [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?

From what I've heard it was the rope, but just to answer your question: you need to extend at Otter Cliffs. Belaying from the top is most common, and normally the belayor is hanging over the edge.

well, chances of webbing failure in well made anchor is very low since webbing is made of static material with little or no elongation and most people make their anchors out of multi layer of webbing and or low diameter static cordelette and in many cases, the anchor is fixed and pointed in one direction with min movement especially in TR setup.

on the other hand, the TR rope is in a dynamic situation with climber moving and changing positions regularly, placing rope in greater risks and hazards and based on history and statistic, I'll put my best guess that is was a rope failure as well.

Of course, but I can see a situation where the belayor is very close to the anchor and moving about, thus causing the webbing to rub over a sharp edge more than if the belayor were on the ground.

Anyway, it still sounds like this was a setup where the rope was used over the sharp edge.


marc801


Jun 17, 2013, 4:00 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
well, chances of webbing failure in well made anchor is very low since webbing is made of static material with little or no elongation and most people make their anchors out of multi layer of webbing and or low diameter static cordelette and in many cases, the anchor is fixed and pointed in one direction with min movement especially in TR setup.

on the other hand, the TR rope is in a dynamic situation with climber moving and changing positions regularly, placing rope in greater risks and hazards and based on history and statistic, I'll put my best guess that is was a rope failure as well.

Of course, but I can see a situation where the belayor is very close to the anchor and moving about, thus causing the webbing to rub over a sharp edge more than if the belayor were on the ground.

Anyway, it still sounds like this was a setup where the rope was used over the sharp edge.
The article also did not mention diameter, let alone static or dynamic, nor do we know if it was the climbing rope or an anchor rope.

Static webbing will cut just as easily as cord if it is dragged back and forth over an edge. Majid is only thinking of the up-down movement of a dynamic cord as it is weighted and unweighted in at TR. There are a number of climbs at Otter Cliffs where the same anchor is used for multiple lines, thus even further opening the possibility of back and forth movement over an edge.

Here's a photo of one of the Otter Cliff anchors that I grabbed off of Mtn Project. The cliff edge is the skyline above the anchor:



Gmburns2000


Jun 17, 2013, 4:23 PM
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marc801 wrote:
The article also did not mention diameter, let alone static or dynamic, nor do we know if it was the climbing rope or an anchor rope.

static ropes for anchors are used a lot by guides at Otter as these make it easier to set up and break down routes very quickly. I'm not saying that's what he was using (your point is valid - we don't know), but it's common.


Highgloss


Jun 17, 2013, 4:23 PM
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Could a top rope fall on a core shot rope do it? Maybe...


billl7


Jun 17, 2013, 7:55 PM
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marc801 wrote:
In reply to:
The rope appears to have broken because it wore through while rubbing against a sharp rock, he said.
One wonders if it was webbing and not rope.

Perhaps to avoid going down a path here that is not applicable, the quote you included is from a park ranger named Richard Rechholtz. A search by his name yields many hits involving rescues and body recoveries, and not just this one involved a litter and rescue rigging. Some indicate he is now a supervisor. I'd wager he knows the difference between a rope and webbing.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 17, 2013, 7:56 PM)


majid_sabet


Jun 17, 2013, 9:11 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?

From what I've heard it was the rope, but just to answer your question: you need to extend at Otter Cliffs. Belaying from the top is most common, and normally the belayor is hanging over the edge.

well, chances of webbing failure in well made anchor is very low since webbing is made of static material with little or no elongation and most people make their anchors out of multi layer of webbing and or low diameter static cordelette and in many cases, the anchor is fixed and pointed in one direction with min movement especially in TR setup.

on the other hand, the TR rope is in a dynamic situation with climber moving and changing positions regularly, placing rope in greater risks and hazards and based on history and statistic, I'll put my best guess that is was a rope failure as well.

Of course, but I can see a situation where the belayor is very close to the anchor and moving about, thus causing the webbing to rub over a sharp edge more than if the belayor were on the ground.

Anyway, it still sounds like this was a setup where the rope was used over the sharp edge.

you have valid point but I think there was guide involved and most climbers, when they setup anchor, they do consider protecting anchor over the edge by all means and that is part of any basic TR 101 course.

If you can't protect your anchor nor you are too blind to see what may happens to a moving anchor over sharp edge then you should not climb.


marc801


Jun 17, 2013, 11:37 PM
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billl7 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
In reply to:
The rope appears to have broken because it wore through while rubbing against a sharp rock, he said.
One wonders if it was webbing and not rope.

Perhaps to avoid going down a path here that is not applicable, the quote you included is from a park ranger named Richard Rechholtz. A search by his name yields many hits involving rescues and body recoveries, and not just this one involved a litter and rescue rigging. Some indicate he is now a supervisor. I'd wager he knows the difference between a rope and webbing.
Agreed - but I don't trust the accuracy of reporting one bit when it comes to climbing accidents. That includes getting quotes correctly.


billl7


Jun 18, 2013, 6:14 AM
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Both the company and rangers were investigating.

It's clear that a rope broke, but the company wants to know why. "The systems were technically sound," Tierney said. "They were following industry standards."


source: Acadia National Park fall sends 2 climbers to hospital after difficult rescue effort

"The company" is a reference to Acadia Mountain Guides. Tierney is the owner.


billl7


Jun 18, 2013, 6:43 AM
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Below is a screen shot from a completely different event conducted by Acadia Mountain Guides showing their use of padding at edges.

source: http://acadiamountainguides.com/ (see video titled Untamed New England Adventure Race)

Granted, AMG probably anticipated that the ropes would see lots of traffic in that other event. Still, seems one additional possibility in the case of this accident is a rope already compromised before that day.




Gmburns2000


Jun 18, 2013, 6:57 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
On this particular accident, why do you think webbing is more subject to cut than rope ?

From what I've heard it was the rope, but just to answer your question: you need to extend at Otter Cliffs. Belaying from the top is most common, and normally the belayor is hanging over the edge.

well, chances of webbing failure in well made anchor is very low since webbing is made of static material with little or no elongation and most people make their anchors out of multi layer of webbing and or low diameter static cordelette and in many cases, the anchor is fixed and pointed in one direction with min movement especially in TR setup.

on the other hand, the TR rope is in a dynamic situation with climber moving and changing positions regularly, placing rope in greater risks and hazards and based on history and statistic, I'll put my best guess that is was a rope failure as well.

Of course, but I can see a situation where the belayor is very close to the anchor and moving about, thus causing the webbing to rub over a sharp edge more than if the belayor were on the ground.

Anyway, it still sounds like this was a setup where the rope was used over the sharp edge.

you have valid point but I think there was guide involved and most climbers, when they setup anchor, they do consider protecting anchor over the edge by all means and that is part of any basic TR 101 course.

If you can't protect your anchor nor you are too blind to see what may happens to a moving anchor over sharp edge then you should not climb.

can't disagree with that.


scrapedape


Jun 18, 2013, 11:21 AM
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I was up in Acadia this weekend, not to climb, but to hike and paddle with the family. We went by Otter Cliffs on Saturday and were nowhere nearby on Sunday. Not that any of that is relevant, I suppose.

Having climbed there in the past, I can say that there are ways this could have been a lot worse. Longer falls are certainly possible there, and the landing is nasty. Not to mention the possibility of bouncing off a ledge and into the ocean...


Gmburns2000


Jun 18, 2013, 11:46 AM
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scrapedape wrote:
I was up in Acadia this weekend, not to climb, but to hike and paddle with the family. We went by Otter Cliffs on Saturday and were nowhere nearby on Sunday. Not that any of that is relevant, I suppose.

Having climbed there in the past, I can say that there are ways this could have been a lot worse. Longer falls are certainly possible there, and the landing is nasty. Not to mention the possibility of bouncing off a ledge and into the ocean...

yeah, actually, that last one is a definite danger that many people don't recognize. there have been many people swept out to sea along this stretch of coast over the years. Once you're in, too, it's REALLY difficult to get back to shore.


ninepointeight


Jun 18, 2013, 2:03 PM
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How does a single rope break cause the belayer AND guide (presumabley the guide was rapping off a second rope attached to the same anchor) to fall unless they were using a single line as an anchor? Since when are single point anchors 'industry practice'?


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Jun 18, 2013, 2:04 PM)


billl7


Jun 18, 2013, 3:47 PM
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ninepointeight wrote:
How does a single rope break cause the belayer AND guide (presumabley the guide was rapping off a second rope attached to the same anchor) to fall unless they were using a single line as an anchor?

The above (emphasis mine) sounds almost like a counter balance rap. If it is, that technique relies on one rope.

Do you have a source?

Edit: If it is not clear - Counter-balance rap is a self-rescue technique where one person is tied into an end of a rope in the normal manner. The rope then goes up through the anchor's power point and then back down to the other person who is configured for rappelling. Often, the rappel is backed up and the two people are conneced with, say, a sling lockered to each of their belay loops. As the one person rappels, the friction up at the power point is overcome by loading through the connecting sling. If the rope breaks, both people likely fall.


The opening post in this thread has been updated with details about the circumstances: Two Boston-area rock climbers injured in fall in Maine national park

The male climber and the guide were on the rock face when the climbing rope all three were tethered to broke after rubbing against a rock ledge, according to Jon Tierney, owner of the climbing school.

Much akin to Marc's opening post.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 18, 2013, 5:46 PM)


Syd


Jun 18, 2013, 5:56 PM
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billl7 wrote:


It's clear that a rope broke, but the company wants to know why. "The systems were technically sound," Tierney said. "They were following industry standards."


A single rope anchor breaks ?! A guide following "industry standards" but no redundancy ?


billl7


Jun 18, 2013, 6:05 PM
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Syd wrote:
A single rope anchor breaks ?! A guide following "industry standards" but no redundancy ?
Sure sounds like there was no redundancy where it counted, given this report by Tierney:

The male climber and the guide were on the rock face when the climbing rope all three were tethered to broke after rubbing against a rock ledge, according to Jon Tierney, owner of the climbing school.

There might have been a bon-a-fide anchor above the point where the rope was cut, but it obviously didn't matter.


iron106


Jun 19, 2013, 5:41 AM
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In reply to:
“She was on the ground below. She was the one having difficulty. The guide went down to coach her through a difficult move and when the guide fell, it ended up pulling the other climber off with him,” he said.

So I am guessing this, The guide climbed the route set up a great anchor for his clients to climb on. He ran a line so he could see the clients climb up and give beta see if they were in trouble etc. Then client 1, the male climbed the route. The guide must have clipped him into the same line he was on so he could watch client 2, the female also? Client 2 the female was stuck, couldn't climb up, whatever. Then the guide must have lowered himself on the secondary line for assistance. So the rope they were both now on was not the main climbing line. If there were any padding, protection needed it would normally go on the regular line. This second line now gets cut due to movement unexpected when the anchor was originally set up.

Sound correct?


billl7


Jun 19, 2013, 6:21 AM
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Sounds plausible except that a normal / typical anchor would have had redundancy.


acorneau


Jun 19, 2013, 6:39 AM
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billl7 wrote:
Sounds plausible except that a normal / typical anchor would have had redundancy.

True, however if the guide was using something like a Magic-X or ACR then if that one cord gets cut in one place the whole anchor falls apart.

The fact that all three fell makes me guess that it was the anchor system that failed. Whether that anchor system was made with a cord, climbing rope, static rope, or even webbing remains to be seen.

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