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Winemaker


Jun 10, 2013, 11:03 AM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

Here's a very good analysis with pull data for the EDK versus other knots. There are also some thoughtful recommendations.


chris


Jun 20, 2013, 9:05 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
I tie my cordalettes exclusively with single EDK's in 6 and 7 mil nylon cord. I use my cordalette this way during the 200 or some odd days I spend climbing outside. In the several years I've been using this configuration I have not had a problem. That does not mean it is without limitations.

I find it helpful to untie it on alpine climbs where I may be threading around boulders or rock pinches.

I find I untie it less often for setting up topropes or any single pitch stuff.

There are plenty of other knots for joining ropes, depending on their application and your needs some may be better. Make sure it's dressed and you have decently long tails.

Assuming you build bomber anchors then the capsizing of the knot is irrelevant because it is isolated from the rest of the anchor legs by the masterpoint knot. If you are not isolating the knot in your anchor you may consider a different knot.

I agree with jmeizis - I've been using an doubled overhand knot to join my cordellette for 13 years. Because I'm paranoid about Jay's scenario (the factor 2 fall on the anchor, causing the overhand to roll), I back it up with a second overhand, and three inches of tail (about the width of my hand).

I'll respectfully disagree with Jay and the other naysayers. This is a common and accepted standard.


shockabuku


Jun 22, 2013, 12:39 PM
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Re: [chris] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
I agree with jmeizis - I've been using an doubled overhand knot to join my cordellette for 13 years. Because I'm paranoid about Jay's scenario (the factor 2 fall on the anchor, causing the overhand to roll), I back it up with a second overhand, and three inches of tail (about the width of my hand).

I'll respectfully disagree with Jay and the other naysayers. This is a common and accepted standard.

You make this assertion with no evidence to support it and, perhaps, most of the evidence given so far contradicts what you state.

It does not appear to be common in my experience. Where do you observe it being commonly used?

What body endorses it as an accepted standard?


chris


Jun 22, 2013, 2:49 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Good point. I'm not sure how I would provide evidence - I'm not aware of any surveying done on this question. Every test I've seen published about the strengths of the double overhand have shown that its plenty strong enough for anchor use, especially when you consider its only attached to one leg of a multi-part anchor.

So my anecdotal evidence: Amongst my friends here in the Pacific Northwest, I can't think of anyone who doesn't use an double overhand to tie their cordellette. I first learned about using it in 2000, became comfortable with using it within a year, and quickly saw it being adopted where I've been climbing over the past 10 years.

The AMGA teaches in its courses that an doubled overhand is an acceptable knot for a cordellette. In fact, that's how I learned about it in 2001. And I've seen it taught and used in every course and exam I've participated in since then (6 courses and 3 exams in total). I just spent a month in the Alps, and I recall seeing several IFMGA Mountain Guides using it there as well. This is very much a non-issue in the guiding community. Both knots are acceptable.


bearbreeder


Jun 22, 2013, 7:10 PM
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Re: [chris] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
Good point. I'm not sure how I would provide evidence - I'm not aware of any surveying done on this question. Every test I've seen published about the strengths of the double overhand have shown that its plenty strong enough for anchor use, especially when you consider its only attached to one leg of a multi-part anchor.

So my anecdotal evidence: Amongst my friends here in the Pacific Northwest, I can't think of anyone who doesn't use an double overhand to tie their cordellette. I first learned about using it in 2000, became comfortable with using it within a year, and quickly saw it being adopted where I've been climbing over the past 10 years.

The AMGA teaches in its courses that an doubled overhand is an acceptable knot for a cordellette. In fact, that's how I learned about it in 2001. And I've seen it taught and used in every course and exam I've participated in since then (6 courses and 3 exams in total). I just spent a month in the Alps, and I recall seeing several IFMGA Mountain Guides using it there as well. This is very much a non-issue in the guiding community. Both knots are acceptable.

RCer "experts" know way more than any stinking AMGAers or IFMGAers

Tongue


jt512


Jun 23, 2013, 12:07 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:

RCer "experts" know way more than any stinking AMGAers or IFMGAers

Tongue

Heill mein AMGA Führer!


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 23, 2013, 12:10 AM)


bearbreeder


Jun 23, 2013, 12:50 AM
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Re: [jt512] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:

RCer "experts" know way more than any stinking AMGAers or IFMGAers

Tongue

Heill mein AMGA Führer!

Quoted for posterity ya RC "expert"

Wink


shockabuku


Jun 23, 2013, 2:26 AM
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Re: [chris] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Thanks for a thoughtful reply.


Partner rgold


Jun 23, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Re: [chris] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Bearbreeder loves to contrast the experts with the "experts," but one of the things folks sometimes forget is that there isn't a single thing called "expertise," there are actually different types of expertise. Guides are (or should be) expert at all aspects of guiding. Since it is surely never anticipated that a guide will factor-two onto the belay, considerations relevant to that scenario do not need to be part of a guides's expertise. A cordelette tied with a flat overhand is undoubtedly adequate for all guiding applications, but non-guided parties who may be pushing themselves on climbs with marginal protection can be pardoned for not treating guiding knowledge as applicable, without question, to their situation.

It is true that there isn't much evidence out there, so we have to make do with what there is. The only relevant tests I know about are in http://efclimbers.net/...nd-cord-strength.pdf. What Blue Water found is that a flat overhand (EDK) in a loop of 7mm cord had a breaking strength of nearly 13 kN, with breakage at the knot. Loops of 7mm cord tied with a double fisherman's broke at about 18 kN, with breakage at the pulling pin (i.e. at the carabiner). So the flat overhand appears to be the weak point in a loop, whereas the double fisherman's is not.

The 13 kN breaking strength is more than adequate for use in one arm of a cordelette. But it is arguably marginal for a worst-case scenario if the cordelette is used as a single loop. If the leader were to take a standard UIAA fall with the lead rope clipped to the anchor, loads around 13 kN are possible with a static belay. Some climbers and most engineers would consider an essentially zero margin of safety to be problematic in this situation.

My take would be that the flat overhand is fine as long as the cordelette isn't used as a single loop that could be the sole protection point for a leader fall, which presumably includes all guiding situations. But personally, I can't see the logic of using an inferior knot, designed for other purposes that do not include high loads. The only argument I can think of is the desire to untie the cordelette regularly, but if that is genuinely a consideration, then the method I posted the video for earlier seems to be a more intelligent solution.


chris


Jun 23, 2013, 6:05 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Interesting - the paper you cite, rgold, was written by a AMGA certified guide and published in an AMGA quarterly newsletter.

Just to be clear, I don't advocate that the flat overhand was applicable in all conditions. I would also caution about using a single strand-ed cordellette for any anchor. The breaking strength of 6mm cord is 2000 lbs, or 9 kn. 7mm breaking strength is 2800 lbs, or 13 kn. While these are adequate for static loads like rappelling, no one would consider that adequate for a shock load.

My imagination of the OP scenario looked like this: I want to use this 20' tall tree as my anchor, so I untie my cordellette, do two wraps around the tree, retie the cord, and then tie a master point. Voila.

Another study on the subject is at Black Diamond. http://blackdiamondequipment.com/...l?q=qc%20lab%20knots


(This post was edited by chris on Jun 23, 2013, 6:33 PM)


jt512


Jun 23, 2013, 6:22 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
It is true that there isn't much evidence out there, so we have to make do with what there is. The only relevant tests I know about are in http://efclimbers.net/...nd-cord-strength.pdf. What Blue Water found is that a flat overhand (EDK) in a loop of 7mm cord had a breaking strength of nearly 13 kN, with breakage at the knot.

Note that the reported 13-kN strength was the average breaking strength. This figure is useless without also knowing the standard deviation, which was not reported. After all, about half of the samples would break below the average strength. The question is, how much?

As a side note, is it odd that he found that the flat-8 was stronger than the flat overhand for connecting ropes? Didn't the famous Chris Harmston tests find not only the opposite, but that the flat-8 was flat-out dangerous?


Partner rgold


Jun 23, 2013, 8:34 PM
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Re: [jt512] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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I don't recall anything about breaking strength, but the flat eight did turn out to be very dangerous and resulted in some fatalities, one of them in Zion.

Whatever the previous testing protocols were, they didn't include testing the behavior of the knots under relatively heavy cyclic loading, conditions that are exactly what happens when rappelling. The Zion accident involved a climber rappelling with a haul bag, I think, which meant the weight involved was bigger than just an average body weight.


Partner rgold


Jun 23, 2013, 8:47 PM
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Re: [chris] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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chris wrote:
The breaking strength of 6mm cord is 2000 lbs, or 9 kn. 7mm breaking strength is 2800 lbs, or 13 kn. While these are adequate for static loads like rappelling, no one would consider that adequate for a shock load.

I mentioned this, along with the concern about abrasion of a thin cord on rock features, as reasons to be wary of a single loop used as an anchor. That observation didn't seem to be of interest.

chris wrote:
My imagination of the OP scenario looked like this: I want to use this 20' tall tree as my anchor, so I untie my cordellette, do two wraps around the tree, retie the cord, and then tie a master point. Voila.

Maybe, but if you were going to wrap the cordelette twice around the tree, there would be no reason to untie it, since you could just wrap the tied loop around once. It seems to me (as a very occasional cordelette user) that there is no reason to untie a cordelette unless you are going to use it as a single loop, one that can't simply be dropped over the feature being employed.


knudenoggin


Jul 2, 2013, 10:21 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
chris wrote:
The breaking strength of 6mm cord is 2000 lbs, or 9 kn. 7mm breaking strength is 2800 lbs, or 13 kn. While these are adequate for static loads like rappelling, no one would consider that adequate for a shock load.
But if you're closing this cord in a loop/circle/sling,
you need to double the strength (roughly) --5,600#, then.


In reply to:
chris wrote:
My imagination of the OP scenario looked like this: I want to use this 20' tall tree as my anchor, so I untie my cordellette, do two wraps around the tree, retie the cord, and then tie a master point. Voila.

Maybe, but if you were going to wrap the cordelette twice around the tree, there would be no reason to untie it, since you could just wrap the tied loop around once.
Or make a girth hitch (for reach), putting the end-2-end knot
perhaps even AT the collar of this hitch, or else somewhere
around the tree.

In reply to:
It seems to me (as a very occasional cordelette user) that there is no reason to untie a cordelette ...

But what is the reason TO TIE it?

The canonical form of the (structure) "cordelette" is a 3-legged,
3-armed being with a knotted waist; the legs are longer and must
be able to withstand full load, as they are uniquely anchored;
whereas the arms are jointly clipped as the power point.
If a bight (arm/leg) of this material can withstand full load,
why must one clip three of them as the powerpoint eye?
--two should do, and maybe be easier on the clipped 'biner,
less likely to load off-axis; that leaves one arm unneeded
here, unclipped : : : and might as well ... untied --it would
be the ends of one cord.
Of course, you can tie them together, and an "EDK" makes
best sense, as one can tie that snug to the powerpoint knot,
where it might serve qua stopper for any slippage through
the powerpoint knot to these cord tails --each tail goes to
a different "leg", note.
(And I think that the aforementioned video does this,
but I've not seen it.)

Maybe I should've Replied-with-Quote of the prior comment, WAY
above, who nicely credited me for this observation/recommendation
--there should be more posts like that, eh?! (In my mind there are.)
Tongue


Now, some remarks about the knotty things uttered above,
which bear repeating in hopes that repetition breeds comprehension.

"... is stronger ..." :: for the main, this consideration is both
largely irrelevant in the knotting climbers do (things are not breaking,
so one might regard them as equally strong by this practical
pass/fail test),
and often not well assessed : e.g., HMPE (Spectra/Dyneema) cord
proves stronger on the test device in slow-pull testing but effectively
weaker in dynamic loading for its lack of "shock absorption".
The same might be true of the above-advanced knots competition
between the EDK and others, should that rumored "rolling" have
the effect of absorbing force while the competitor knot is tightening!?
--YMMV. Moyer's testing in large showed not-so-much rolling,
but ...

... there is much more variability to the offset water knot
(it is *offset* from the axis of tension, it is NOT "flat")
than is generally recognized. One can orient the knot body
in a range of about 180deg of rotation (looking *down* at
the knot, say, pulled tight over a desk top, and in so doing
change one side's entry into it from a backward looping
to a forward arcing; then there is the tightening, and ... .
It's surprising to see single tests cited as proving anything,
given how many factors might be at play AND the test
having no hint about how these factors were valued/set
in the test, even.

As for strengths of the offset water knot vs. offset fig.8,
one FYI data point (note caution above!) from the CMC Rope
Rescue Manual found the fig.8 to be about as strong as the
butterfly (which was to be preferred precisely on this sort
of *through*/end-2-end loading (eye unloaded), and stronger
that the end-2-end-loaded Directional-fig.8. 69% - 65% - 59%
My, ... the irony!.
--in some (large) rope (low-elongation),
in slow-pull loading,
in some (unknown) orientation ...
(and 5 tests per knot)


*kN*


knudenoggin


Jul 2, 2013, 10:30 PM
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Re: [padlinfool] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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padlinfool wrote:
swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs.

You could just NOT tie the cordelette into a loop.... by pulling the loose ends through the one main knot.

Pretty easy to do.
-Grab both ends together (creating an imaginary loop).
-Clip your pieces and pull down the loops to your loose ends. You can adjust the length of the loops by pulling slack on loose ends(great feature).
-Tie your knot (8 or overhand) with the loops and loose ends.
-Tighten and dress....even the loose ends

You will end up with double strands to all pieces (with no knots), a big knot, 2 loop masterpoint (for a 3 piece anchor) plus the loose ends exiting from the bottom of the knot.

Credit to knudenoggin for this concept.

Best post ever! (besides my own, natch Laugh )

Though, seriously, if one is using HMPE/Technora-cored cord,
DO tie off the tails, snug to the powerpoint knot, with an
offset water knot (EDK) --to guard against slippage through
the powerpoint knot, which in being so bulky multi-stranded
will have less "nip"/grip on individual strands,
and the slippery, low(no)-stretch cores have been seen to
pull free of overloaded-&-broken sheaths.

*kN*


sittingduck


Jul 3, 2013, 3:39 PM
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Re: [knudenoggin] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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knudenoggin wrote:
Best post ever! (besides my own, natch Laugh )

Though, seriously, if one is using HMPE/Technora-cored cord,
DO tie off the tails, snug to the powerpoint knot, with an
offset water knot (EDK) --to guard against slippage through
the powerpoint knot, which in being so bulky multi-stranded
will have less "nip"/grip on individual strands,
and the slippery, low(no)-stretch cores have been seen to
pull free of overloaded-&-broken sheaths.

*kN*

Have tested this method and often he loose ends becomes so short that it is hard to tie an EDK without taking of the mittens. Therefore I keep the cordelette tied in a loop.


knudenoggin


Jul 4, 2013, 9:58 AM
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Re: [sittingduck] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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sittingduck wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:
Best post ever! (besides my own, natch Laugh )

Though, seriously, if one is using HMPE/Technora-cored cord,
DO tie off the tails, snug to the powerpoint knot, with an
offset water knot (EDK) --to guard against slippage through
the powerpoint knot, which in being so bulky multi-stranded
will have less "nip"/grip on individual strands,
and the slippery, low(no)-stretch cores have been seen to
pull free of overloaded-&-broken sheaths.

*kN*

Have tested this method and often he loose ends becomes so short that it is hard to tie an EDK without taking of the mittens. Therefore I keep the cordelette tied in a loop.

Fine, but :
(1) with non-hi-mod cord, you shouldn't need them tied;
(2) or have the knot pre-tied, but arrange for it
to be positioned *through* the powerpoint knot so that
you have the same result --end-2-end knot is unloaded.

AND, given the usual advice to "leave long tails" for the
offset water knot (EDK), well, that makes one pause about
how extensive one's cordelette loop is in first place, no?!
(One does NOT need long tails for this knot positioned as
suggested above, and esp. if tied snug to the powerpoint knot,
where rolling isn't a real possibility. Similarly, the grapevine
bend consumes a fair amount of rope, too.)
I.e., encountering the tails-are-too-short-to-tie situation
implies that you have made a cordelette structure that is
longer than would've been possible to make if it had some
pre-tied knots-that-consume-much-cord (EDK & long tails,
grapevine) --at least the difference musn't be great between
these).

A pre-tied EDK w/non-long tails should work pretty well,
with then the need being to simply snug this knot up
both in its own setting, and putting it near the powerpoint
--the overhand already made, and only the tightening left
to be done, to finish : mitten doable?!

*kN*


ninepointeight


Jul 4, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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This doesn't add up. You said the cord is rated to 19KN, but you also said it was 6mm and nylon. There is no nylon cord of a diameter suitable for a cordlette rated anywhere close to 19KN single strand.

You'd be talking about 9mm for that kind of rating.


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Jul 4, 2013, 11:11 AM)


jberk


Jul 4, 2013, 12:03 PM
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ninepointeight wrote:
This doesn't add up. You said the cord is rated to 19KN, but you also said it was 6mm and nylon. There is no nylon cord of a diameter suitable for a cordlette rated anywhere close to 19KN single strand.

You'd be talking about 9mm for that kind of rating.
Hey thanks, I already got my answer but to clarify this is what i have http://www.backcountry.com/...rcord-cordelette-6mm and it is 6mm and rated at 4800lbs so I made a mistake thats greater than 18 i believe its actually 21kn. Its been working out so far but a little stiff so I would make sure you got sizable tails.


ninepointeight


Jul 4, 2013, 12:19 PM
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Gotcha. Powercord is a blend. Not just nylon.


sittingduck


Jul 4, 2013, 2:34 PM
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Re: [knudenoggin] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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knudenoggin wrote:
sittingduck wrote:
knudenoggin wrote:
Best post ever! (besides my own, natch Laugh )

Though, seriously, if one is using HMPE/Technora-cored cord,
DO tie off the tails, snug to the powerpoint knot, with an
offset water knot (EDK) --to guard against slippage through
the powerpoint knot, which in being so bulky multi-stranded
will have less "nip"/grip on individual strands,
and the slippery, low(no)-stretch cores have been seen to
pull free of overloaded-&-broken sheaths.

*kN*

Have tested this method and often he loose ends becomes so short that it is hard to tie an EDK without taking of the mittens. Therefore I keep the cordelette tied in a loop.

Fine, but :
(1) with non-hi-mod cord, you shouldn't need them tied;
(2) or have the knot pre-tied, but arrange for it
to be positioned *through* the powerpoint knot so that
you have the same result --end-2-end knot is unloaded.

AND, given the usual advice to "leave long tails" for the
offset water knot (EDK), well, that makes one pause about
how extensive one's cordelette loop is in first place, no?!
(One does NOT need long tails for this knot positioned as
suggested above, and esp. if tied snug to the powerpoint knot,
where rolling isn't a real possibility. Similarly, the grapevine
bend consumes a fair amount of rope, too.)
I.e., encountering the tails-are-too-short-to-tie situation
implies that you have made a cordelette structure that is
longer than would've been possible to make if it had some
pre-tied knots-that-consume-much-cord (EDK & long tails,
grapevine) --at least the difference musn't be great between
these).

It should be fairly easy to learn how much rope to leave for the EDK if one chose to use this method.

knudenoggin wrote:
A pre-tied EDK w/non-long tails should work pretty well,
with then the need being to simply snug this knot up
both in its own setting, and putting it near the powerpoint
--the overhand already made, and only the tightening left
to be done, to finish : mitten doable?!

*kN*

That is doable with mittens. Do you think the snug-to-the-powerpoint EDK could make untying the powerpoint more difficult? (this is one of the exact reasons I try to keep the pre-tied fisherman away from the powerpoint)


knudenoggin


Jul 5, 2013, 10:28 AM
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sittingduck wrote:
Do you think the snug-to-the-powerpoint EDK could make untying the powerpoint more difficult? (this is one of the exact reasons I try to keep the pre-tied fisherman away from the powerpoint)

Maybe it's a "YMMV" case, but I'd expect that one could
yet do the sorts of bending/prying/pulling on the powerpoint
knot to loosen it. In the usual case, the strands that here
are knotted would be loaded (if no failed anchors, all six
are loaded, both sides of the knot); if one bight on the
attach-to side is left unloaded (maybe even untied),
then you have four strands delivering somewhat greater
tension to the knot opposite the six anchoring ones,
which will increase the four's tightness, but ... .

*kN*

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