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climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 8:09 AM
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Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb
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Please weigh in if you are an adult responsible for a child while lead climbing.

http://www.easypolls.net/...ba08e4b084575d8553be

Thanks,

Ian


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Err, that´s a stupid poll, there´s no place for `They use my draws´ or `they use the centres equipment´. Which is probably the case for the majority of people climbing with minors.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 9:57 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Err, that´s a stupid poll, there´s no place for `They use my draws´ or `they use the centres equipment´. Which is probably the case for the majority of people climbing with minors.

It shouldn't matter if they are yours or not. Is your argument is that because they are yours/the centers that they don't need inspection?


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 11:24 AM
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No, since they are either mine or belong to a centre they will have already been inspected either by myself or the person at the centre responsible for equipment inspection.
I´ve never experienced a minor providing his own equipment.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 11:28 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
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So you do not routinely inspect the gear every time that is climbed upon because you assume it is fine because at some point in the past it has been inspected by yourself or another qualified adult at the center?

BTW, not judging... just looking for common practices.


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Normally one checks before each session but each to his own, the PPE rquirements are every 12 months and each before each use, how extensive the relevant checks are is open to intepretation.
In relation to the recent accident, the Petzl inspection requires complete dismantling of the quickdraw and reassembly which can only increase the chances of incorrect reassembly at some stage. And nobody does this before each climb.
Allowing unqualified or untrained people to tamper with or assemble equipment is naturally a completely different matter anyway which falls under group leadership and control.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 12:10 PM
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So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...


Kartessa


Jul 11, 2013, 12:18 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't understand the point of this.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 12:28 PM
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The point of this survey was to get a glimpse in to the current practices and safety checks used by adults when climbing with minors regarding the evaluation of quickdraws.

The reason I wanted to look at that is I suspect the following:

1.) Consistently inspecting quickdraws is not a common practice when climbing with minors.

2.) The accident, while completely preventable, could have happened to many of us.

In light of this, we need to re-evaluate what is best practices for safety when it comes to minors that lead climb.


jomagam


Jul 11, 2013, 1:23 PM
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If you want a real picture of any situation, then have more options than Absolutely 100% of the time and Not 100.00% of the time. For example there might have been a day or two in the last decade when I did not brush my teeth, but 99.9% of the days I did multiple times.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 1:33 PM
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In climbing we deal with absolutes. Doing things "almost" every time shouldn't be the standard, especially when it is the life of a child IMHO. Once you fail to hold yourself to that standard it becomes a slippery slope.


jomagam


Jul 11, 2013, 1:46 PM
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Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 1:58 PM
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jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %

Thanks!


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 2:55 PM
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climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 3:08 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME

Fair enough, however we do have to remember that we are discussing gear that children are climbing on. What is realistic for "always" then? 90/100, 95/100, 99/100?


marc801


Jul 11, 2013, 3:51 PM
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climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 4:03 PM
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marc801 wrote:
climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


I don't have an agenda, but do have a hypothesis that most of us have probably been somewhat lax when it comes to inspecting gear used by children. The poll provides options for people to choose their own answer.


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 4:32 PM
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... And we Australians have the reputation of saying "yeah, she'll be right mate..."

Do people here understand that this is a poll about gear used by children?

Children do not have the capacity for predictive planning. This means they are not adept at considering risk and potential for danger in a predictive sense, such as may be observed in checking climbing gear for damage or as in Tito's case, faulty set up.

As such the responsibility for the child's safety falls on to the adults with them. And not just one.

Do we understand that concept?

Let me explain it a little more. When tying in my belayer checks my knot. Why? Because it adds an extra safety element. A second responsible person quality assures that I have done it correctly.

I don't ask a child. I don't ask a non climber. I ask a competent person to check. every time for safety

When I put gear on my harness I know my belayer is also paying attention and letting me know if something is amiss. I do the same. It might be just a: "hey, is that 'draw right? It's sitting funny on your harness..." But I am watching. It is a reflexive thing.

In the situation of a child climbing, there must still be two people checking everything that relates to that child's safety. If it is just you, then you are subjecting that child to exactly the type of practice that is not recommended for adults.

A child climbing changes the rules. They can't check with reliability, you must check everything they will be using 100% of the time before they climb. And ask someone else to check it too.

Any other procedure is irresponsible.

Cheers Adam


granite_grrl


Jul 11, 2013, 5:28 PM
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climb2core wrote:
marc801 wrote:
climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


I don't have an agenda, but do have a hypothesis that most of us have probably been somewhat lax when it comes to inspecting gear used by children. The poll provides options for people to choose their own answer.

I would suspect that most parents are "lax" in most activities performed by the child outside of climbing. What parents inspects their kid's bike every time they go out? Or even their bike helmet. Fuck, I didn't even have a bike helmet when I was a kid!

A parent should be using gear from a trusted source (their own gear, climbing club's, etc). But there isn't going to be a 100% inspection every time they go out.


rocknice2


Jul 11, 2013, 5:36 PM
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I agree this is a stupid poll.

I doubt anyone check 100% of their gear 100% of the time.
The reality is, a climber is checking their gear every time they rack up, place and the second checks when they recover it. This isn't a thorough verification but compiled over time is adequate.

That said, if I'm taking out kids them I will make sure they have their harness doubled back and tied in properly. If they bring their own draws that their dad just got them, I'll take a look at them.
This is on a sliding scale too. Obviously nobody is going to treat a 16 year old with 4 years experience the same as a 10 year old with 1 year. Or a 32 yr old with no experience.

I haven't heard mentioned who's QD's they actually were. If they belonged to the club then they were most likely assembled by the coach or assistant. In everyone's mind they were assembled properly. needless to say that if I can't assemble a QD properly, I don't qualify to verify if they are in proper climbing condition.

I do however check the tire pressure and brakes of the school bus that stops outside my door every morning.


Kartessa


Jul 11, 2013, 5:42 PM
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climb2core wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME

Fair enough, however we do have to remember that we are discussing gear that children are climbing on. What is realistic for "always" then? 90/100, 95/100, 99/100?

Do you do a full safety check of your car every time you have a minor in it? 100% of the time?


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 5:44 PM
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some people on the intraweb are going crazy with the "blame game" over this accident

i see 12 year olds all the time loitering around the 7-11 on weekend nights ... i see em riding bikes around my neighbourhood without helmets ... i see em do unroped 3rd and 4th class scrambles ... i see em swimming in open water on the beach ... i see em and their parents on boats without life jackets ....

and ive done ALL THESE THINGS myself at that age ...

there risk in anything ... short of locking the kids in the closet youll never truly eliminate the risk

teach em the basic safety procedures ... and give em quick checks ... theres "kids" i know who climb who i would trust more than any "adult" tough guy climbers

ANYONE here who says that they ALWAYS check ALL their and their partners gear closely before every climb is a LIAR or you dont climb that much ... there will be plenty of times where youll glance at a bundle of gear decide its fine and use em ...

those intraweb "experts" can rant on all they want ... but if 4 trained firefighters can miss something similar that leads to a fatality ... anyone here can as well, despite any "safer than thoult" attitude



Before the rappelling attempt, four people looked at or inspected Marovich’s rappelling gear: the spotter trainee who installed the “O” ring, Marovich, and in the helicopter a spotter, and another helitack crewperson who did a “buddy check”.

Marovich fell, unarrested, shortly after stepping out onto the helicopter skid. He was pronounced deceased about 30 minutes later.


http://wildfiretoday.com/...rappelling-fatality/

Crazy


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 7:11 PM
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This is not about blame...

Those involved will have their own demons to battle, probably for the rest of their lives, on the "Tito" tragedy.

A coroner will determine cause and make recommendations, and my guess is that a recommendation that children's gear is checked every time will be made.

All that aside, I find it difficult to understand why people struggle with the concept and provide strawman arguments around the concept of not having to check everything that a child is being tied into or relying upon when they are suspended high above the ground.

The amount of effort in performing a check of the gear that a child is about to use will actually take less energy and time than defending a stance to the contrary on the Internet. Yet people persist.

Do I check that every seatbelt of every child who gets into my car is properly fastened? Yes. 100% of the time. Do I check the connections? No. Bt they are not known to have fail points that can simply undo. I check the fail point, which is the buckle.

Do check my son's bike every time he goes out for a ride? No. I service it regularly, and I know it well. But it does not have known fail points that can simply undo. I check that he is wearing his helmet 100% of the time. See the theme? Known fail points, things that need to be checked are checked.

Climbing gear has many potential fail points, from knots to quick draws to bolts etc. Yes, it may be a pain in the butt to check this stuff, but really, is it that hard? That tedious? So damned difficult that the benefits of not checking 100% of the time are so greatly outweighed by the costs that it is worth defending this stance for hours on the Internet?

We can't do anything to prevent Tito's death. But we can learn from it.

Here's what I have been reminded about in this situation, and that is the need to have a second person check. Whilst I have always checked everything 100% of the time, I have not always had another adult climber check it.

It's no ones business to try to make those involved feel worse, we should be supporting them. But let's not stick our heads in the sand. The gear was not checked adequately, and it should have been.

Instead of looking to feel better about my own practice when taking kids climbing, I'm more prepared to actually take a few more minutes while performing the check, and make sure that I actually get a second experienced person to check all the gear. Screw my pride, children are trusting me, and I am willing to learn from the example.

Cheers

Adam


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 7:33 PM
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ajkclay wrote:

This is not about blame...

-----------------

Any other procedure is irresponsible.

sure it is for you as the quote above shows ... youre the one going off about irresponsibility if one doesnt do this or that ... youve got an obvious agenda ...

the simple fact is that you CANT check everything in kids life ALL THE TIME ...

sure give the gear a basic check ... and better yet TEACH them how to do their own checks ...

but are you going to "check" every piece and every climb after EVERY single pitch ... after all gear can get damaged DURING a climb as well ...

do you pre-climb a route to make sure theres no loose rock? ... well you better climb 8a+ French with kids these days ... i bet you cant

climbing is NOT reducible to a seatbelt ... you cant reduce it to one simple factor ...

and in case you havent noticed, this is the first time weve heard of this type of fatality involving a DOGBONE ... some "experts" think that they can prevent the unexpected ... bullshiet ...

only intraweb "experts" going off about "irresponsible" predict this stuff after the fact ...

sit them down and go through basic SAFETY so they can LEARN ... not just should out "IRRESPONSIBLE, IRRESPONSIBLE"

Crazy


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 9:29 PM
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Yes. I do have an agenda. I stated it quite plainly. Learning from this unfortunate accident.

Duh.

I don't care about your agenda, your chest thumping about who can climb what, nor experience, although I would have thought that to a moderately experienced climber it would be reasonably obvious that in order to check a route you don't have to be able to climb it - heard of a rap inspection?

Also, if you'd bothered to read other posts you'd see the point of the seatbelt comment.

But here's the reality of things: a child is not capable of predictive planning the kind required for risk assessment whilst on route and prior to climbing. They are not. Anecdotes about trusting some children more than adults is not a measure of how intelligent the child is, but of how irresponsible the adult is. This is not something that can be debated. It is not a variable. Frontal lobe development through adolescence is based on very robust study. I do not expect you or others to necessarily know this, but I do. It is my job to.

So we come back to my agenda: using the recent accident as a means to re-evaluate procedure and then assisting others to understand the need to provide children with exactly the same level of safety checking that we insist on for ourselves, a check of gear and relevant factors by two adults.

That's it. If you disagree, fine,

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