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JAB
Jul 10, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #26 of 77
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joeforte wrote: Yes, draw failure caused him to deck, but from what I understand, he died days later due to his head injury. This makes me ask... was he wearing a helmet? Would a helmet have saved him? Who knows. Of all of the pictures of him online, I cannot find any pictures of him wearing one. This is not his fault, or his parents. It is OUR fault. We set the standards. Look in all of our magazines. Helmets are used in nearly all other "extreme", "adventure", or fast-paced sports where there is a risk of a traumatic brain injury. Why aren't they more common in ours? I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.
Apparently he was not wearing a helmet. I totally agree that on gym organised trips, wearing a helmet should be mandatory. What people do on their own trips is up to them, but on an organised trip (where parents expect certain safety standards), I don't see why they shouldn't require helmets to be used.
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billl7
Jul 10, 2013, 12:23 PM
Post #27 of 77
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Syd wrote: I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ? .... Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.
If you haven't started letting them be responsible for their safety by about 8 years old, they will likely be relatively unprepared when they are 18. Parenting irresponsibly cuts both ways.
But I will say, for me, there are a number of activities that I do for which I don't encourage even my adult children to do.  They are totally on their own for making those choices. Examples include climbing and bicycle-commuting to school/work.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 10, 2013, 12:24 PM)
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jktinst
Jul 10, 2013, 3:14 PM
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One significant correction to make in the google translation posted by Bearbreeder is that the demo draws shown in the linked article were assembled by one of the teenagers from Tito’s climbing group (not by "a group of teenagers"). This was done to show how the wrong configuration that caused his fall was actually put together and to show how the "right" configuration should have been.
Of course, as Bearbreeder pointed out and as everyone here will instantly have seen, although the top configuration is way more wrong, neither of these configurations is "right" since the rubber attachment was placed on the straight-gate biner instead of the bent-gate one. This certainly calls into question the level of gear-safety competence of both the kid who supplied the draws and the climbing website that published them without any comment on the error.
(edited for minor grammatical error)
(This post was edited by jktinst on Jul 10, 2013, 5:21 PM)
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sonso45
Jul 10, 2013, 3:16 PM
Post #29 of 77
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I am a parent and my children are all adults. I still pray for their safety daily. They don't climb as much as I do but I think they can have fun and be safe. I can't imagine how Tito's parents must be feeling. My condolences.
This tragedy underscores the need to check your gear, knot, belayer, etc. Climbing is complex and potentially fatal as we have just seen. Everyone in the party should at least glance to see what is going up the rock. This reinforces my double check with my belayer. If you depend for your life on the equipment you carry up the face, it better be good to go.
This youngster paid for his mistake. Let's hope this message spreads to all those that take up this sport.
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joeforte
Jul 11, 2013, 2:48 AM
Post #31 of 77
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Very well said indeed.
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Syd
Jul 11, 2013, 3:37 AM
Post #32 of 77
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lena_chita wrote: skelldify wrote: The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors. YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!! Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent. It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable. How about go-cart racing? Kids do it all the time. Going to an overnight camp with a lake nearby? There is only so much a parent can do, to ascertain that the person they are entrusting their child to is actually trustworthy. Sure, you have an option of never letting your kids participate in anything, but I don't think you would have wanted to be that child, and neither should you be that kind of parent. Gym climbing is a much more mainstream activity in Europe, and so are climbing teams. And kids are not dying right and left (thank god!). But accidents happen. Sometimes people fall victims to their own mistakes, and sometimes the mistake of one person results in a death of another. Also, perfectly trustworthy, perfectly competent, perfectly sane and responsible adults can sometimes slip, make mistakes, or get distracted. Kids drown in bathtubs two feet away from their watchful parents, as well as in lakes, rivers, and pools. Kids choke to death in front of watchful grandparents. Kids fall off the stairs, off the playgrounds, etc. etc. Life just isn't 100% safe. In this case, the victim of the accident was a young and high-profile climber, but I do believe this this could have happened to a competent adult climber, too (not putting the draws together wrong, but climbing on a draw that was put together in a wrong way, without realizing it.) Have you watched the video I linked upthread? Look at the final result of the draw put together and tell me with 100% certainty that you and every generally-responsible adult climber you know couldn't have possibly clipped a draw like that, ever. The rubber gasket covers the sling part completely in the fully-assembles state, you cannot actually see the sling and tell that it is not assembled correctly. Here are some scenarios that happen every day at sport crags everywhere: --you walk in, there are draws hanging on the wall, they appear to be someone's marked draws, not project draws, and a group of climbers nearby, but nobody on the route with draws. You ask the group of climbers if it is their draws and whether it is O.K. to climb on them. They say sure, and you climb... Sure, you check the draws visually as you clip them. Maybe run your finger on the rope-side draw to make sure it is not sharp. But if it is a hard-for-you route, how thorough is your inspection? -- you get to the crag, there is a rope hanging on one route, climbers nearby, nobody climbing that route. You ask if they would be o.k. if you pulled the rope. They tell you that they were hoping to toprope the route later, so could you please climb on their rope and put it back up for them? You say yes. The rope looks new, they are climbing on it, you trust that they haven't dipped it in battery acid. --you are about to climb a route, when someone walks in and asks if you are cleaning the draws after you climb. You say yes. They ask if it would be possible to give you their draws to put on bolts 5 and 6, as you clean the route. You say, sure, why don't you give me two of your draws for the anchors, too, it will make the cleaning faster. Regardless of whether you personally ever do anything like that, it is a common behavior. And people are trusting that the perfect strangers have not screwed up.
Well said skelldify.
Lena and skelldify, do you have kids ? How old are they ?
Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?
(This post was edited by Syd on Jul 11, 2013, 3:42 AM)
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creektrails
Jul 11, 2013, 3:46 AM
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This is my first post and I first of all want to thank rockclimbing for this forum. I am 46 and new to rock climbing. I started in order to do something fun and exciting with my 14 year old son. We started in a gym and now we climb at the red river gorge which is fairly close drive to us.
I am trying to read everything I can on safety and accidents in order to help prevent myself or more importantly my son from suffering a bad accident.
I have learned much from this particular forum. Most of all tying knots when abseiling, wearing a helmet and double checking everything.
This is a great sport and if what was mentioned in the above article is true that this young man was climbing for the first time without his father the tears welled up in my eyes are for his father. OF COURSE it was not his fault but he willl lay blame on himself and for this I feel the worst. I am sorry such a young life was lost but accidents do befall all. My condolences go out to his family, my heart breaks for them. I would also like to thank all of the members who comment on tragedys such as this. Through the hashing out of reasons why come answers and occasionally wisdom. Thanks
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billl7
Jul 11, 2013, 4:44 AM
Post #34 of 77
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Syd wrote: Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?
I think you are confusing the idea of
a) a parent being responsible for their own actions in parenting a minor
with
b) a parent being responsible for their teenager's actions.
For good or for bad, those are two very different things as reflected in the state laws where I live.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 11, 2013, 4:44 AM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Jul 11, 2013, 3:34 PM
Post #36 of 77
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This situation really hit home for me. My 5 year old son was the one who got me into climbing. I had no experience with climbing before that. I simply was terrified of heights my entire life.
Over the last 4 years my son’s climbing has progressed rapidly partly because he was inspired to push his limits by young climbers like Tito. He also has been inspired to climb hard outdoors. However, I have absolutely no outdoor climbing experience so I couldn’t make that happen without the help of our climbing gym instructors.
We have been to our local climbing spot(Pilot Mountain) so many times that I can’t count them all. Each time has been either with a guide(Fox Mountain Guides) or with his climbing gym instructors. And on every occasion I have gone with him, only allowed him to top rope, and made him wear a helmet at all times.
I know all of the other kids ask why his dad is going on the trip when no one else’s dad is there. I simply tell them that it is because I am a photographer and I take pictures for the gym. The real reason is that I simply want to be the one responsible for his safety. I double check everything I can with him and I make him sit out when he doesn’t make safety his number one goal.
I know at some point I will have to just trust that I have instilled the importance of safety enough in him to let him go on these trips without me. However, at 9 years old it is still hard for me to come to grips with that.
He has also had several opportunities to climb at the Red on lead with experienced and consciousness parents and other experienced young climbers. I have turned them all down because I just wasn’t confident enough in his leading and my abilities to identify a dangerous situation because I haven’t done it before.
This incident with Tito has made me even more concerned that I wouldn’t be able to identify all of the dangerous situations that occur with lead climbing. I am not sure if I would have been able to spot that the quickdraw setup was improperly assembled. I am not accustomed to using any of the rubber stoppers like that.
That being said eventually I will have to let him have his independence. I will have to trust not only the people he goes with but I will also have to trust his own safety skills. I am not sure at what age that will be. Maybe 10, 11, or 12 years old like Tito. Perhaps sooner. Perhaps later.
All I know is that as a parent the worst nightmare I have ever had was waking up after the thought of my son falling from the anchors. I can’t imagine the suffering that Tito’s parents are going through right now. The loss of my children is my biggest fear. I only hope that I have instilled enough sense of self-preservation in them so that we don’t ever end up in a situation like this ourselves.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Jul 11, 2013, 3:37 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Jul 11, 2013, 3:41 PM
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Are there any stoppers that cannot be installed incorrectly? Some of the designs I have seen so far really look like they are an accident waiting to happen.
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billl7
Jul 11, 2013, 5:06 PM
Post #38 of 77
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A well written post that will ring true for many of us parents.
JasonsDrivingForce wrote: That being said eventually I will have to let him have his independence. I will have to trust not only the people he goes with but I will also have to trust his own safety skills. I am not sure at what age that will be. Maybe 10, 11, or 12 years old like Tito. Perhaps sooner. Perhaps later.
Somewhere in the above will also be conceding to his ability to assess the climb-safety skills of others. To me it was sort of like my teenage kids eventually making choices about who they drove with - as their passengers or as a passenger of someone else near their age.
Since you don't climb much, the next best to help you with future decisions might be an adult climber who knows him well in whom you can use as a sounding board.
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Kartessa
Jul 11, 2013, 5:10 PM
Post #39 of 77
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Syd wrote: Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?
Way to take it to an extreme.
A parent's job is to raise their children to become smart, safe, responsible adults. You really don't know if you did it right until they have their own kids.
I'm a parent of a small child and I try to let him make his own decisions and sometimes, even his own mistakes. You can't wrap your kids in a bubble for 18 years and expect them to function the day you cut them loose. Children need to learn about themselves and the world around them, to learn about responsibility and know that while mommy and/or daddy love them, they won't always be there to hold their hand.
At 12 years old, letting your child go off with a supervised group that has had many uneventful outings before isn't irresponsible, it's letting them come into their own.
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rocknice2
Jul 12, 2013, 12:41 AM
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Does anyone know who's QD they were?
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lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 12, 2013, 3:42 PM
Post #42 of 77
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Syd wrote: Lena and skelldify, do you have kids ? How old are they ? Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?
Not sure what it has to do with this thread, but yes, I do have kids. They are 14 and 10.
And I can't answer your question better than bill already did:
billl7 wrote: I think you are confusing the idea of a) a parent being responsible for their own actions in parenting a minor with b) a parent being responsible for their teenager's actions. For good or for bad, those are two very different things as reflected in the state laws where I live.
I am responsible for teaching my kids, and I try to teach by example. They will never see me text while driving. We have discussed responsible use of alcohol, the dangers of drugs, etc. Obviously, I am modeling proper behavior there, too. I am also taking reasonable measures to make sure that I know the kids they are hanging out with, the families that those kids come from, etc. I am trying to be involved in their lives, and to be a kind of parent that my kids will feel safe confiding to, if there is a problem.
That is all I can realistically do, as a parent.
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ghisino
Jul 13, 2013, 6:46 PM
Post #43 of 77
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rocknice2 wrote: Does anyone know who's QD they were?
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shockabuku
Jul 14, 2013, 3:10 PM
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JAB wrote: joeforte wrote: I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.
That is probably true.
JAB wrote: Apparently he was not wearing a helmet. I totally agree that on gym organised trips, wearing a helmet should be mandatory. What people do on their own trips is up to them, but on an organised trip (where parents expect certain safety standards), I don't see why they shouldn't require helmets to be used.
Life is about choices, perhaps they choose to let the parents decide. That's what the gym where my children climb does. I sign a statement allowing them to climb without a helmet and so the gym allows them not to do that, including on outdoor trips. My children all have helmets and I encourage them to wear them when the risk is what I consider to be appropriately high as does the gym.
I don't want anyone taking any more of my choices away.
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shockabuku
Jul 14, 2013, 3:18 PM
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With my children I made sure they were starting to learn these things for themselves and could demonstrate to me that they understood the important safety concepts before I let them go with others or by themselves. There isn't a "one day" in which they, and you, will be ready unless you're working toward it all the time.
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Syd
Jul 16, 2013, 11:34 PM
Post #46 of 77
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This clearly shows that parents must take responsibility, at least for their kids' gear. 55% of group leaders "assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear."
If so many group leaders don't check the kids' gear, it makes me wonder how well they check other aspects of safe climbing, such as tying in, belaying and the particular routes they climb.
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lena_chita
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Jul 17, 2013, 3:35 PM
Post #47 of 77
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Syd wrote: This clearly shows that parents must take responsibility, at least for their kids' gear. 55% of group leaders "assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear." If so many group leaders don't check the kids' gear, it makes me wonder how well they check other aspects of safe climbing, such as tying in, belaying and the particular routes they climb.
No offense to climb2core, but it was a silly poll, and trying to draw any conclusions from it is equally silly.
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theextremist04
Jul 17, 2013, 10:03 PM
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As Bill said in reply, it will be hard for you to continue to assess safety conditions for your son. If you want an adult to talk to about it, Ron at Fox Mountain Guides might be a good choice. I know he has kids (I believe even your son's age) that do some climbing and he is extremely safety oriented as well.
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anarkhos
Jul 24, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Can someone explain what Petzl is trying to elucidate in the bottom left precaution? Not to clip the rope biner to the bolt? How is this dangerous? It looks like the BD buckle coming apart in Cliffhanger.
Also, I may get flack for this, but one of the few purposes I have for these things is affixing one biner to the end of a really short sling to make a long draw, as shown in the bottom left precaution. Obviously, I have no intention of clipping the rope biner to anything except the rope, and don't see how I could do this accidentally.
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lena_chita
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Jul 24, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #50 of 77
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anarkhos wrote: Can someone explain what Petzl is trying to elucidate in the bottom left precaution? Not to clip the rope biner to the bolt? How is this dangerous? It looks like the BD buckle coming apart in Cliffhanger. Also, I may get flack for this, but one of the few purposes I have for these things is affixing one biner to the end of a really short sling to make a long draw, as shown in the bottom left precaution. Obviously, I have no intention of clipping the rope biner to anything except the rope, and don't see how I could do this accidentally.
Assuming you are talking about the image that bearbreeder posted (I'm re-posting it below)...
the precaution is about clipping the biner that is immobilized wit ha rubber keeper to the bolt ( usually it is the rope-end biner, but the picture tells you that you shouldn't put a rubber keeper on the bolt-size biner or clip a draw with rope-end rubber keeper to the bolt.
The same picture also demonstrates the reason for this precaution. When the biner/dogbone joint on the bolt end is immobilized by the rubber keeper, it is more likely that the movement of the rope will force the dogbone and therefore the immobilized bolt-end biner to rotate, resulting in a situation where the biner is snagged or cross-loaded, and thus more easily breakable in case of a fall.
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