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noobington


Jul 24, 2013, 1:44 PM
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What's wrong with this anchor?
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For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback:

I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work.

What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation.

(I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).


(This post was edited by noobington on Jul 24, 2013, 1:47 PM)
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sittingduck


Jul 24, 2013, 1:58 PM
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Re: [noobington] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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noobington wrote:
For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback:

I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work.

What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation.

(I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).
It will work but you should not clip metal with the carabiners that is dedicated for the rope. The carabiners might get nicked and damage the rope in the future.


wwalt822


Jul 24, 2013, 2:06 PM
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Re: [noobington] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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noobington wrote:
For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback:

I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work.

What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation.

(I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).

This probably wont kill you but if you plan on belaying from the anchors you should carry a double length sling or use the rope to make an anchor.

A top rope fall isnt likely to make burs on the carabiners which could damage the rope but its not out of the question.

The main issue is that you could twist the locker while belaying and that could make it unclip from one of the quickdraws. Who knows, maybe you dont catch it and do the same thing with the other draw and now your in trouble.


noobington


Jul 24, 2013, 2:14 PM
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Re: [sittingduck] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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Ah, so metal-on-metal is a concern because of the interaction of their surfaces and potential damage?

Hadn't considered that, but it makes sense.


sittingduck


Jul 24, 2013, 2:26 PM
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Check out what DMM says about it: http://dmmclimbing.com/...tential-rope-damage/


noobington


Jul 24, 2013, 5:37 PM
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Solid and very useful answers. Thanks to everyone, very helpful. :-)


bearbreeder


Jul 24, 2013, 5:47 PM
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Re: [sittingduck] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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sittingduck wrote:
It will work but you should not clip metal with the carabiners that is dedicated for the rope. The carabiners might get nicked and damage the rope in the future.

no its fine ... its ROUNDED biner on ROUNDED biner and you arent taking lead whippers on em

people do it all the time ... many guides use a masterpoint carabiner which the client clip themslves to ... the DMM Boa was basically built for that purpose

noobington wrote:
Solid and very useful answers. Thanks to everyone, very helpful. :-)

and WRONG ...

the biners wont get "damaged" any more than any other configuration ... nor will they "twist" out as shown, any more than a rope will twist out of 2 opposed biners that are acceptable for TR anchors ...

to the OP ... the anchor is absolutely and utterly fine as shown ... everyone does things differently, doesnt mean its "unsafe"

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 24, 2013, 6:05 PM)


Appelkoos


Jul 24, 2013, 6:51 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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Three-way loading on the biner. I wouldn't climb on that anchor, and I'd berate any climbing partner who belayed me on that.


bearbreeder


Jul 24, 2013, 7:18 PM
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Appelkoos wrote:
Three-way loading on the biner. I wouldn't climb on that anchor, and I'd berate any climbing partner who belayed me on that.

3 way loading on WHAT biner??? its irrelevant for the forces involved

you should tell BD about how stupid they are with the alpine bod harness ... they arent worried about for LEAD belaying Tongue



youre joking? .... does no one on RC climb in the real world anymore???

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 24, 2013, 7:42 PM)


Rudmin


Jul 24, 2013, 7:28 PM
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It's probably fine, but I bet if I fucked around with the ropes for long enough I could unclip both of those biners without touching them.


bearbreeder


Jul 24, 2013, 7:39 PM
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Rudmin wrote:
It's probably fine, but I bet if I fucked around with the ropes for long enough I could unclip both of those biners without touching them.

no more likely unclipping a top rope from 2 opposed biners ... of which i believe someone still has a 40$ reward on this forums for any documented cases

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2565680

whats happened to RC?

Tongue


Appelkoos


Jul 24, 2013, 8:16 PM
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3-way loading on the load-bearing screwgate. Pretty easy to see how fiddling around with a belay could rotate the biner into a classic 3-way-load.

Agree that the forces are low. Except, shit happens. Belayer sorts out twisted ropes, slack builds up, second takes a factor 0.5 fall. Or anchor used with a static rope. Or second leads on, takes a factor 1 fall.

Yes, I climb in the real world. There are some objective dangers I'm prepared to take - runouts, unexpected loose rock, storms - and some I'm not. Anchors with potential weaknesses which are easilly fixed falls into the latter category.

Easy to throw in a 60cm 8mm sling with a fig-8 and the problem is solved.

PS - I find it difficult to get my legs and pelvis to apply opposing forces. But I've never meen terribly flexible.


Rudmin


Jul 24, 2013, 8:22 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
It's probably fine, but I bet if I fucked around with the ropes for long enough I could unclip both of those biners without touching them.

no more likely unclipping a top rope from 2 opposed biners ... of which i believe someone still has a 40$ reward on this forums for any documented cases

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2565680

whats happened to RC?

Tongue

The extra locker and belay device makes it a lot easier to apply a torque to this system.

I would weight the rope, and spin around a whole lto and alternate weighting and unweighting the rope. The spinning puts a torque on the locker and the bouncing lets it ride up and down on the two biners, hopefully jumping into the gate and unclipping itself.


bearbreeder


Jul 24, 2013, 8:57 PM
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Re: [Appelkoos] What's wrong with this anchor? [In reply to]
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Appelkoos wrote:
3-way loading on the load-bearing screwgate. Pretty easy to see how fiddling around with a belay could rotate the biner into a classic 3-way-load.

Agree that the forces are low. Except, shit happens. Belayer sorts out twisted ropes, slack builds up, second takes a factor 0.5 fall. Or anchor used with a static rope. Or second leads on, takes a factor 1 fall.

Yes, I climb in the real world. There are some objective dangers I'm prepared to take - runouts, unexpected loose rock, storms - and some I'm not. Anchors with potential weaknesses which are easilly fixed falls into the latter category.

Easy to throw in a 60cm 8mm sling with a fig-8 and the problem is solved.

PS - I find it difficult to get my legs and pelvis to apply opposing forces. But I've never meen terribly flexible.

irrelevant ... the angle is fine, the forces are minimal, and the top 2 biners are focused on one spot

realistically you could twist and turn all you want and it will hold ... the biner wont break

from craig luebbens Rock Climbing Anchors

same type of load on the biner



a VERY standard top rope anchor setup ... not the "triaxial" load on the biners ...



Tongue


Appelkoos


Jul 24, 2013, 9:10 PM
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I'd install a sling to avoid tri-axial loading. Bearbreeder doesn't think it's worth the effort.

@noobington - unclipping and tri-axial loading are two potential failure modes. In an emergency your setup should be OK. But I'd personally avoid it where possible.


bearbreeder


Jul 24, 2013, 9:17 PM
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Rudmin wrote:

The extra locker and belay device makes it a lot easier to apply a torque to this system.

I would weight the rope, and spin around a whole lto and alternate weighting and unweighting the rope. The spinning puts a torque on the locker and the bouncing lets it ride up and down on the two biners, hopefully jumping into the gate and unclipping itself.

REALISTICALLY ... no ... they wont both come out ... its a SUPERVISED belay ... and its not easy to make one come out

just for arguments sake i took a Williams biner and 2 Nitro biners and shook it vigorously ... over and over again .... twisted em all over the place ... EVENTUALLY i was able to get one to come out after a few minutes

you will NEVER put that kind of crazy stupid shaking on you anchor if you have any intelligence at all Tongue

shake that boootay for me ....







if you violently threw and twisted the a rope like i did these biners ... youd probably get one strand out as well...

Tongue


sittingduck


Jul 24, 2013, 11:56 PM
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If you need options; this is a safe way to rig that anchor with the gear at hand:




ChaseLeoncini


Jul 25, 2013, 8:55 AM
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You'd probably be fine with that but the question really is why do it that way? If youre looking for speed (assuming two bolts), take a pre-set 3 foot sling with 2 lockers on it like an alpine draw. Clip into the bolts, twisty, lockie, clove. Done. 9 seconds. If youre out of gear, there is so many fast rope anchor rigs to choose from. You'd be safe with that way you show i suppose but i wouldnt leave it unattended even if it does need a massive earthquake to come undone... point is, why use anything that is more likely to come undone?


meanandugly


Jul 25, 2013, 9:17 AM
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There is really nothing wrong with it. It is what I would call adequate, but not optimal.
If you belay me up on that I would suggest something better, such as a single longer sling setup that has already been mentioned.


majid_sabet


Jul 25, 2013, 11:11 AM
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if you closely study how metal to metal make contact, you will see that one of the biner from the master point may only contact one biner from the anchor and not both . this has to do with how round object make contact with one another.

the overall system is weak but for weekend sport climber who build anchors with even 1 draw, this is over kill and If I had to build such a shitty anchor, I would had used a bear paw to divide load .


Syd


Jul 26, 2013, 3:08 PM
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I would have agreed with bearbreeder but I found this:



bearbreeder


Jul 26, 2013, 3:47 PM
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Syd wrote:
I would have agreed with bearbreeder but I found this:

does no one use a basket hitch anymore???






how about stare at the pretty pictures of the DAV (german alpine club) publications

OMG ... look at this loading!!!



how about fixed point LEAD belaying???



dont go to germany as their alpine club, which by the way is the LARGEST climbing association in the world, obviously doesnt know what they are doing

that setup will work just fine for bringing up the second

Tongue


InDaDacks


Jul 26, 2013, 7:40 PM
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The proper way to set up a belay from 2 bolts with 2 quickdraws and a reverso is to clip the two quickdraws directly to the reverso. Petzl demonstrates this technique. It is important that the bolts are level horizontally and not too far apart. Save your locker, simplify your setup.


Syd


Jul 27, 2013, 2:38 PM
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Syd wrote:
I would have agreed with bearbreeder but I found this:
[image]http://i.stack.imgur.com/4l4H2.jpg[/image]

I assume the problem with the pic on the right is simply that the two anchors are at the wrong end of the biner, ie they should be at the narrow end. Easy for the biner to flip around though.


socalclimber


Jul 27, 2013, 8:06 PM
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There are better ways, but the anchor is fine.

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