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epsulliv


Aug 19, 2013, 7:46 PM
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the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall?
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Is this the safest, cheapest multiple anchoring system for securing yourself at the top of a pitch? Or I am over-looking something here? It doesn’t make sense why companies can get away with selling $30 personal anchoring systems (looped daisy chains) when you can accomplish total safety in a “fairly” light, cost effective P.A.S. with a little creative know-how.

This is a really simple and seemingly effective method to get straight in to the wall. I took 20 feet of webbing (you could get away with 15) and connected both ends together with a water knot. Then I girth hitched the long loop in through my harness in a way so I had two separate looped ends, each an arms length.

In the pictures below you can see I tied an overhand knot at the end of each separate strand. Then I daisy chained each strand and clipped the last loop with a locking carabiner. I then clipped the biner into the last loop of the chain allowing you to unclip this and extend the chain quickly.

I have my biners clipped to my harness around the waist belt. They aren’t in the way much and feel lighter than a similar system with girth hitched 7-8mm cordalette(s).

The main goal as I see it is to be able to quickly secure yourself to more than one piece of gear/protection/ bolt etc. so if one piece fails the system is still loaded on the other second or third piece.

I can’t seem to think of any reason NOT to use this system. It reminds me of the system used in zip-line guide and high ropes course tethers. Again, I haven’t used this off the ground and am still scratching my head wondering if I am missing something?
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billl7


Aug 19, 2013, 9:05 PM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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epsulliv wrote:
Is this the safest, cheapest multiple anchoring system for securing yourself at the top of a pitch? Or I am over-looking something here? It doesn’t make sense why companies can get away with selling $30 personal anchoring systems (looped daisy chains) when you can accomplish total safety in a “fairly” light, cost effective P.A.S. with a little creative know-how.

This is a really simple and seemingly effective method to get straight in to the wall. I took 20 feet of webbing (you could get away with 15) and connected both ends together with a water knot. Then I girth hitched the long loop in through my harness in a way so I had two separate looped ends, each an arms length.

In the pictures below you can see I tied an overhand knot at the end of each separate strand. Then I daisy chained each strand and clipped the last loop with a locking carabiner. I then clipped the biner into the last loop of the chain allowing you to unclip this and extend the chain quickly.

I have my biners clipped to my harness around the waist belt. They aren’t in the way much and feel lighter than a similar system with girth hitched 7-8mm cordalette(s).

The main goal as I see it is to be able to quickly secure yourself to more than one piece of gear/protection/ bolt etc. so if one piece fails the system is still loaded on the other second or third piece.

I can’t seem to think of any reason NOT to use this system. It reminds me of the system used in zip-line guide and high ropes course tethers. Again, I haven’t used this off the ground and am still scratching my head wondering if I am missing something?

For some, the answer depends on what kind of climbing you typically do: multi-pitch versus single-pitch. Might save you some time reading through posts. Then again, this is RC.verbose.com - :-)

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 19, 2013, 9:05 PM)


epsulliv


Aug 19, 2013, 9:58 PM
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Re: [billl7] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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Yah bill, it doesn't take long around here to sum up a lot of this forum activity as wordy banter! thanks for the sarcastic insight.

The type of climbing one is doing is important, I'm just starting out on the sharp end with easier sport routes, mainly single pitch.i think it's versatile for securing yourself to an anchor regardless of the type of climbing.

I was just doubting myself because the system is really simple. That, and I wanted to verify if one end failed, the other end of the girth hitch would still hold.

Just seemed like such an easy thing, I was hoping someone may use a similar rig and be able to talk about it in a few thousand words or less!


potreroed


Aug 19, 2013, 10:24 PM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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Your "system" will work fine but I think it's a bit bulky and not very adjustable.

I've been climbing since 1967 and have seen and used just about every new product that has come along and I'm a huge fan of the PAS. Well worth the expense in my humble opinion.

You might also want to check out the Purcell prusik tie-in system.


billl7


Aug 20, 2013, 4:56 AM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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Well, one doesn't have to look very far to see that I'm pretty wordy myself! Wink

epsulliv wrote:
i think it's versatile for securing yourself to an anchor regardless of the type of climbing.

I'm one of those for whom "the best" personal anchoring system" depends on the type of climbing. For multi-pitch, I almost always use the rope to tie in to anchor rigging. If I did a lot of single-pich, I'd probably come up with something else much as you are ... since, when cleaning an anchor before descending, one many times isn't tied into the rope.

Bill L


rocknice2


Aug 20, 2013, 5:01 AM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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epsulliv wrote:
I was just doubting myself because the system is really simple. That, and I wanted to verify if one end failed, the other end of the girth hitch would still hold.

Is it one long sling girth hitched in the middle? Or does it have a knot just before the girth hitch? Or two separate slings?
After rereading above You need to make a knotted loop in the middle and then girth hitch that loop into your harness.

Your right it's inexpensive but it does seem a bit bulky and not really adjustable. The other issue is that on a multi pitch you would need to take the time to daisy chain the tethers back up and that would waste time.

Hey, if it works for you go for it.


(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Aug 20, 2013, 5:08 AM)


billl7


Aug 20, 2013, 5:04 AM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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Ed's comments above are good (Ice's too).

I've played some with the purcell prusik. My climb partner uses one when wanting to anchor for lead belay on single pitch. Only con I can think of at the top of a pitch is it can only be reduced to half-length.

Something like the Metolius PAS can go shorter. And sometimes you will want to go short, especially if there is no good ledge to stand upon.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 20, 2013, 5:12 AM)


lena_chita
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Aug 20, 2013, 5:32 AM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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epsulliv wrote:
Yah bill, it doesn't take long around here to sum up a lot of this forum activity as wordy banter! thanks for the sarcastic insight.

The type of climbing one is doing is important, I'm just starting out on the sharp end with easier sport routes, mainly single pitch.i think it's versatile for securing yourself to an anchor regardless of the type of climbing.

I was just doubting myself because the system is really simple. That, and I wanted to verify if one end failed, the other end of the girth hitch would still hold.

Just seemed like such an easy thing, I was hoping someone may use a similar rig and be able to talk about it in a few thousand words or less!

I can't tell very well from pictures, but if I understood the description correctly, your system is safe.

Simple and easy-- not necessarily. For sport climbing, which is all you are doing at the moment, nothing beats the simplicity and the ease of two quickdraws. No extra "stuff" hanging on your harness, nothing extra to buy.


ecade


Aug 20, 2013, 6:52 AM
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Re: [epsulliv] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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epsulliv wrote:
Is this the safest, cheapest multiple anchoring system for securing yourself at the top of a pitch? Or I am over-looking something here? It doesn’t make sense why companies can get away with selling $30 personal anchoring systems (looped daisy chains) when you can accomplish total safety in a “fairly” light, cost effective P.A.S. with a little creative know-how."[/quote "epsulliv"]

This is not the cheapest, it is safe but possible not the safest.

I would say a properly tied Purcell Prussik is your number one. It is likely cheaper than webbing as you would use 7mm prussic cord 20'.

Prussik cord is semi-dynamic compared to static nylon. Also, I'd bet it's lighter.

You can have 2 points of contact with it too, (main loop and upper shelf) and use it to extend you rap.

I use it for multipitches but not for sport single pitch because I find a PAS simpler and offers more choice.

Do not use a Purcell Prussik unless you are 100% confident in how to tie it. It isn't overly complex but it will hold your life so best not to fuck it up.


Tis might


markc


Aug 20, 2013, 8:35 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I can't tell very well from pictures, but if I understood the description correctly, your system is safe.

Simple and easy-- not necessarily. For sport climbing, which is all you are doing at the moment, nothing beats the simplicity and the ease of two quickdraws. No extra "stuff" hanging on your harness, nothing extra to buy.

For sport, I agree with Lena. I tend to use longer slings to clip in directly to the anchor, as shorter draws feel like they give me too little room to work. If I need one of them on the route, I can always work with the shorter draws.

I have a DIY daisy chain made out of supertape for multipitch (water-knotted loop tied off into pockets with overhand knot). It's pretty cheap and compact, and lets me quickly attach while building the anchor.


milesenoell


Aug 20, 2013, 8:41 AM
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It's certainly not for everybody, but I ended up getting an adjustable daisy for aiding and now use it as my personal anchor most of the time. Being able to adjust length to precisely the length I want, and do so without disconnecting anything is nice. It can be a little dangly and probably adds a few grams though.


unsunken


Aug 20, 2013, 11:03 AM
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The extra $20 for a PA is totally worth it imho. Sure, if you're on a tight budget, some webbing and a couple locking carabiners works. That's what I used before I decided I really wanted to invest in climbing gear. Compared to the cost of other climbing gear, a PAS is a drop in the bucket. Given how often I use it and how much less bulky and more adjustable it is, it's worth it to me.


dagibbs


Aug 21, 2013, 9:12 AM
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milesenoell wrote:
It's certainly not for everybody, but I ended up getting an adjustable daisy for aiding and now use it as my personal anchor most of the time. Being able to adjust length to precisely the length I want, and do so without disconnecting anything is nice. It can be a little dangly and probably adds a few grams though.

Be very careful with a daisy if you're clipping through two (or more) loops at the same time for adjustment. If you're not careful, you may only be clipped through the bar-tacks, not through the (rated) material of the sling itself. (The advantage of the PAS over a daisy is that all the loops are rated, so clipping at multiple points is always safe.)


marc801


Aug 21, 2013, 9:34 AM
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dagibbs wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
It's certainly not for everybody, but I ended up getting an adjustable daisy for aiding and now use it as my personal anchor most of the time. Being able to adjust length to precisely the length I want, and do so without disconnecting anything is nice. It can be a little dangly and probably adds a few grams though.

Be very careful with a daisy if you're clipping through two (or more) loops at the same time for adjustment.
Good advice, but see the bolded text in the quote.....


milesenoell


Aug 21, 2013, 9:50 AM
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dagibbs wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
It's certainly not for everybody, but I ended up getting an adjustable daisy for aiding and now use it as my personal anchor most of the time. Being able to adjust length to precisely the length I want, and do so without disconnecting anything is nice. It can be a little dangly and probably adds a few grams though.

Be very careful with a daisy if you're clipping through two (or more) loops at the same time for adjustment. If you're not careful, you may only be clipped through the bar-tacks, not through the (rated) material of the sling itself. (The advantage of the PAS over a daisy is that all the loops are rated, so clipping at multiple points is always safe.)

You are referring to a standard daisy chain, but what I am talking about is not the old fashioned daisy but an adjustable daisy. It uses a spring loaded metal length adjuster that is similar to what you see on some tie-downs for trucks. Pinch to extend, release and it grabs. Because it doesn't use loops or bar tacks it avoids the form of failure you described. Also, you can adjust it down to the exact length you want rather than having to pick from increments that are inches apart.

The ring prevents you from going off the end even if you were to slip while holding the adjuster open, and the length can be adjusted without ever disconnecting yourself. You can even yard down on the tail and pull yourself upward using it like a sort of pulley.




dagibbs


Aug 21, 2013, 9:53 AM
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milesenoell wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
It's certainly not for everybody, but I ended up getting an adjustable daisy for aiding and now use it as my personal anchor most of the time. Being able to adjust length to precisely the length I want, and do so without disconnecting anything is nice. It can be a little dangly and probably adds a few grams though.

Be very careful with a daisy if you're clipping through two (or more) loops at the same time for adjustment. If you're not careful, you may only be clipped through the bar-tacks, not through the (rated) material of the sling itself. (The advantage of the PAS over a daisy is that all the loops are rated, so clipping at multiple points is always safe.)

You are referring to a standard daisy chain, but what I am talking about is not the old fashioned daisy but an adjustable daisy. It uses a spring loaded metal length adjuster that is similar to what you see on some tie-downs for trucks. Pinch to extend, release and it grabs. Because it doesn't use loops or bar tacks it avoids the form of failure you described. Also, you can adjust it down to the exact length you want rather than having to pick from increments that are inches apart.

The ring prevents you from going off the end even if you were to slip while holding the adjuster open, and the length can be adjusted without ever disconnecting yourself. You can even yard down on the tail and pull yourself upward using it like a sort of pulley.

[image]http://img1.spadout.org/s/26050.jpg[/image]

Ah, ok. Not what I thought you meant.


milesenoell


Aug 21, 2013, 9:58 AM
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Once I discovered the adjustable there was no going back, but then I use it for aiding as much as personal anchoring. And as marc mentioned, it is good advice to remind people about the danger of clipping bar tacks on the old style.


rocknice2


Aug 21, 2013, 10:55 AM
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Those adjustable daisies are not strong enough to be a good PAS.
You would need to back up with the rope.

Metolius Easy Daisy
Strength: 1.3 kN (300 lbf)
FOR BODY-WEIGHT USE ONLY
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easy_daisy.html

Yates Daisy Strap
The webbing tests to 1500 lbs.
The buckle is anyone's guess
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/#4


milesenoell


Aug 21, 2013, 11:32 AM
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rocknice2 wrote:
Those adjustable daisies are not strong enough to be a good PAS.
You would need to back up with the rope.

Metolius Easy Daisy
Strength: 1.3 kN (300 lbf)
FOR BODY-WEIGHT USE ONLY
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easy_daisy.html

Yates Daisy Strap
The webbing tests to 1500 lbs.
The buckle is anyone's guess
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/#4

The Metolius Easy daisy uses a plastic buckle which I suspect is why their rated impact force is so low.

While the Yates adjustable daisy uses a metal buckle that is undoubtedly much stronger, you raise a good point that it is an unknown.

You could always clip the ring (or loop the ring is attached with) at the end so that the strap will catch you even if the buckle fails entirely. The straps can get worn relatively quickly if you pull it through the buckle without opening it, so there is an extra layer of concern that the strap may not be at it's full rated strength after being used extensively.
Yates also offers a version that comes with a screamer to reduce peak loads in an impact scenario.

All that said, it is not something that concerns me enough to either clip the end of the strap or use a screamer. Maybe I'm gonna die, but like I began with, "it's certainly not for everybody."


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 21, 2013, 11:49 AM)


rocknice2


Aug 21, 2013, 12:43 PM
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milesenoell remember this is the beginners forum and the Yates daisy is only 7kn [webbing]. That's a big caveat.
MUST be backed up with the rope for multi pitch anchors IMHO
For single pitch cragging and rapping I'd say not the best choice.


kennoyce


Aug 21, 2013, 1:12 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Those adjustable daisies are not strong enough to be a good PAS.
You would need to back up with the rope.

Metolius Easy Daisy
Strength: 1.3 kN (300 lbf)
FOR BODY-WEIGHT USE ONLY
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easy_daisy.html

Yates Daisy Strap
The webbing tests to 1500 lbs.
The buckle is anyone's guess
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/#4

The Metolius Easy daisy uses a plastic buckle which I suspect is why their rated impact force is so low.

While the Yates adjustable daisy uses a metal buckle that is undoubtedly much stronger, you raise a good point that it is an unknown.

You could always clip the ring (or loop the ring is attached with) at the end so that the strap will catch you even if the buckle fails entirely. The straps can get worn relatively quickly if you pull it through the buckle without opening it, so there is an extra layer of concern that the strap may not be at it's full rated strength after being used extensively.
Yates also offers a version that comes with a screamer to reduce peak loads in an impact scenario.

All that said, it is not something that concerns me enough to either clip the end of the strap or use a screamer. Maybe I'm gonna die, but like I began with, "it's certainly not for everybody."

Sorry, but the Metolius buckles are not plastic they are most definately aluminum though I don't know what type. Just looking at the thing, I'd guess that the failure mode is that the webbing slips back through the buckle.


budman


Aug 21, 2013, 1:57 PM
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I personally like using the rope itself. Figure 8 on a bite with at least one clove hitch if it's a bolted anchor or two if it's a gear anchor. You can adjust you to the anchor with one of the clove hitches. I know this is not a personal anchor system separate from the rope but it is low tech, simple, saves weight. and the rope stretches more than runners no matter what runners you use. Ck out DMM's testing of runners used at the anchor.

When I aid climb the system does change. I use daisies and the like but I am always aware of the short comings at the anchor.


milesenoell


Aug 21, 2013, 4:42 PM
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kennoyce wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Those adjustable daisies are not strong enough to be a good PAS.
You would need to back up with the rope.

Metolius Easy Daisy
Strength: 1.3 kN (300 lbf)
FOR BODY-WEIGHT USE ONLY
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/easy_daisy.html

Yates Daisy Strap
The webbing tests to 1500 lbs.
The buckle is anyone's guess
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/etriers/#4

The Metolius Easy daisy uses a plastic buckle which I suspect is why their rated impact force is so low.

While the Yates adjustable daisy uses a metal buckle that is undoubtedly much stronger, you raise a good point that it is an unknown.

You could always clip the ring (or loop the ring is attached with) at the end so that the strap will catch you even if the buckle fails entirely. The straps can get worn relatively quickly if you pull it through the buckle without opening it, so there is an extra layer of concern that the strap may not be at it's full rated strength after being used extensively.
Yates also offers a version that comes with a screamer to reduce peak loads in an impact scenario.

All that said, it is not something that concerns me enough to either clip the end of the strap or use a screamer. Maybe I'm gonna die, but like I began with, "it's certainly not for everybody."

Sorry, but the Metolius buckles are not plastic they are most definately aluminum though I don't know what type. Just looking at the thing, I'd guess that the failure mode is that the webbing slips back through the buckle.

Thanks for the correction!

my mistake


vinnie83


Aug 21, 2013, 7:34 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
You could always clip the ring (or loop the ring is attached with) at the end so that the strap will catch you even if the buckle fails entirely. The straps can get worn relatively quickly if you pull it through the buckle without opening it, so there is an extra layer of concern that the strap may not be at it's full rated strength after being used extensively.
Yates also offers a version that comes with a screamer to reduce peak loads in an impact scenario.

FYI, I've heard of a few incidents of these failing while aid climbing and at least one of those times the webbing broke at the buckle (likely due to the teeth on the cam, but could have been worn as well) so clipping the loop/ring (not sure what either of these are rated to) may not be a 100% solution.


potreroed


Aug 21, 2013, 9:15 PM
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Re: [budman] the best Personal Anchoring System to get straight into wall? [In reply to]
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budman wrote:
I personally like using the rope itself. Figure 8 on a bite with at least one clove hitch if it's a bolted anchor or two if it's a gear anchor. You can adjust you to the anchor with one of the clove hitches. I know this is not a personal anchor system separate from the rope but it is low tech, simple, saves weight. and the rope stretches more than runners no matter what runners you use. Ck out DMM's testing of runners used at the anchor.

When I aid climb the system does change. I use daisies and the like but I am always aware of the short comings at the anchor.

This works fine while going up but what do you tether yourself with when you're rapping down and you're not tied into the rope?

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