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flesh


Mar 23, 2011, 11:05 AM
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Re: [pyrosis] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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pyrosis wrote:
All ratings are subjective, which is why I trust a consensus based on ascents by numerous climbers over years to be much more accurate than a grade assigned by how hard a single route-setter thinks a problem is. The subjective nature of the rating is somewhat mitigated by the consensus. EG, tall climbers find a reachy problem much easier than short climbers, but the consensus ends up being somewhere in the middle. Climbers obviously find some value in this, otherwise why even bother to have ratings at all?

And perhaps I am biased, but I strongly believe: If you have not yet climbed that grade on real rock, you have not yet climbed that grade.

Not that it matters, in the grand scheme of things. Nobody really gives a shit what grade you climb, or I climb, or anyone climbs.

Back to the OP: plateaus are quite common. Find out what weakness you have that is holding you back, and work to overcome that.

+1


jt512


Mar 23, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
pyrosis wrote:
All ratings are subjective, which is why I trust a consensus based on ascents by numerous climbers over years to be much more accurate than a grade assigned by how hard a single route-setter thinks a problem is. The subjective nature of the rating is somewhat mitigated by the consensus. EG, tall climbers find a reachy problem much easier than short climbers, but the consensus ends up being somewhere in the middle. Climbers obviously find some value in this, otherwise why even bother to have ratings at all?

The consensus does make ratings reliable, but it does not change the fact that they're not subjective. If you ask 100 people if they like hot dogs, and they all say yes, does that mean it is not subjective? Of course not. Same goes for grades. Adding more people's opinions does not make something less subjective, even though it does make it more reliable.

How are you defining "subjective"?

Jay


flesh


Mar 23, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
pyrosis wrote:
All ratings are subjective, which is why I trust a consensus based on ascents by numerous climbers over years to be much more accurate than a grade assigned by how hard a single route-setter thinks a problem is. The subjective nature of the rating is somewhat mitigated by the consensus. EG, tall climbers find a reachy problem much easier than short climbers, but the consensus ends up being somewhere in the middle. Climbers obviously find some value in this, otherwise why even bother to have ratings at all?

The consensus does make ratings reliable, but it does not change the fact that they're not subjective. If you ask 100 people if they like hot dogs, and they all say yes, does that mean it is not subjective? Of course not. Same goes for grades. Adding more people's opinions does not make something less subjective, even though it does make it more reliable.

Furthermore, except at major bouldering destinations, you can you almost be guaranteed that any legitimate gym is going to see more ascents on a given climb (at least ascensionists adding their opinion to the consensus), except perhaps the hardest problems in the gym.

Disagree, gym problems will almost never see more repeats than an outdoor problem in a popular area over years of time.
Also, even if a gym problem see's alot of repeats, only the routesetter is usually grading it. Not everyone who repeats it.

It's all subjective, clearly, however, assuming our goal is to get as close to grading something properly as possible, consensus over years makes a huge difference.

There's a local bouldering problem that is three super thin power crimp moves. X superstar climber supposedly sent it 8 years ago, rated it v13. Since then, NOBODY has done it, not one repeat, the first ascent was done by someone with a drug problem. Local v14 boulderers have tried it to no avail and James Litz aka crimpmaster, says it doesn't go.

I think it does go, however, it's probably a v15 three move crimp problem that only the likes of Paul Robinson might do.

Point is, consensus is important. It ADDS a large degree of accuracy, although, it will never be perfect.


Many problems nowadays are given different ratings depending on your height, that's through repeated ascents and consensus.

Hale Bopp, a huge dyno in font, is rated v8/v11 then it gives a breakdown of what it's rated for you based on your height.

My buddy whos 6 1 did it second try. Put Carlo Traversi on it..... he's wicked strong, most likely its v11 for him... I think hes 5 7.


pyrosis


Mar 23, 2011, 11:15 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
Furthermore, except at major bouldering destinations,

Well, I do live in Bishop :P


spikeddem


Mar 23, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Re: [jt512] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
pyrosis wrote:
All ratings are subjective, which is why I trust a consensus based on ascents by numerous climbers over years to be much more accurate than a grade assigned by how hard a single route-setter thinks a problem is. The subjective nature of the rating is somewhat mitigated by the consensus. EG, tall climbers find a reachy problem much easier than short climbers, but the consensus ends up being somewhere in the middle. Climbers obviously find some value in this, otherwise why even bother to have ratings at all?

The consensus does make ratings reliable, but it does not change the fact that they're not subjective. If you ask 100 people if they like hot dogs, and they all say yes, does that mean it is not subjective? Of course not. Same goes for grades. Adding more people's opinions does not make something less subjective, even though it does make it more reliable.

How are you defining "subjective"?

Jay

Hmm. I'd say Dictionary.com's second definition:
Dictionary.com wrote:
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual.

I'd compare it to the 1-10 pain scale, but we've already seen where that would take us. Perhaps we need to get some placebo boulders for a controlled study on the V-grade?

edit: Even if I misused the term, I still stand by my original point that indoor problems are inherently no more and no less subjective.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Mar 23, 2011, 12:50 PM)


lazymonkey


Mar 27, 2011, 5:15 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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i can crush most v5's and a few v6's @ the gravity vault in NJ

but i get pwnt by v0s in the gunks

Pirate


jb2100


Jul 3, 2013, 3:10 PM
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Re: [jb2100] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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Funny looking back on this three years later and wondering what the fuck I was talking about. I believe when I posted this I was climbing that hard in the gym (on crimp problems of all the same style), most of the 5, 6's and 7's I had done were put up by a V11/12 Hueco Tanks local named Travis Vincent who likely couldn't tell the difference between a V4 and V8, to him it was just Veasy.
None of these problems I had done were outside. Fast forward 3 years. I've sent a few outdoor V5's at local area's but most of the bouldering I've done has been at Hueco Tanks. To date I've done 3 V6's and 1 V7 (which I think needs to be downgraded to V6) outside. According to my original post it would seem like I've gotten worse (though in reality I've gotten much better I was just too much of a noob back then to realize that gym grades don't mean anything). Granted I spend most of my climbing time sport climbing these days and not bouldering I still don't think I've ever pulled a V8 move (whether on a boulder or a route) in my life. If I could answer my original questions I would say "Start bouldering outside. Get a tick list, when you've flashed 5 of the last 7 outdoor V5's you've gotten on you can say you "consistently flash V5" same goes for the V6's, how many have you sent outdoors? What different styles? What about V7? Confirm where you at with outdoor boulders. Secondly, a lot of people can rush through boulder grades in the first year and get past V5, most people don't get very far past though, but your progress will slow down. This doesn't mean you're getting worse, just that bouldering is not a linear progression. V6 isn't x points of difficulty more than V5 which is x points of difficulty more than a V4. Have fun with your climbing, push yourself as hard as you can, don't worry about the numbers. You might find that you'll be stuck for 3 years at V5 even though you've certainly gotten stronger, or you could have a year where you jump up from V6 to V8, in the end the grades don't mean that much, you know how hard you climb, you know how much you've progressed compared to where you were. That's the only scale that matters.


(This post was edited by jb2100 on Jul 3, 2013, 3:13 PM)


gosharks


Jul 3, 2013, 6:14 PM
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Re: [jb2100] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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jb2100 wrote:
Funny looking back on this three years later and wondering what the fuck I was talking about. I believe when I posted this I was climbing that hard in the gym (on crimp problems of all the same style), most of the 5, 6's and 7's I had done were put up by a V11/12 Hueco Tanks local named Travis Vincent who likely couldn't tell the difference between a V4 and V8, to him it was just Veasy.
None of these problems I had done were outside. Fast forward 3 years. I've sent a few outdoor V5's at local area's but most of the bouldering I've done has been at Hueco Tanks. To date I've done 3 V6's and 1 V7 (which I think needs to be downgraded to V6) outside. According to my original post it would seem like I've gotten worse (though in reality I've gotten much better I was just too much of a noob back then to realize that gym grades don't mean anything). Granted I spend most of my climbing time sport climbing these days and not bouldering I still don't think I've ever pulled a V8 move (whether on a boulder or a route) in my life. If I could answer my original questions I would say "Start bouldering outside. Get a tick list, when you've flashed 5 of the last 7 outdoor V5's you've gotten on you can say you "consistently flash V5" same goes for the V6's, how many have you sent outdoors? What different styles? What about V7? Confirm where you at with outdoor boulders. Secondly, a lot of people can rush through boulder grades in the first year and get past V5, most people don't get very far past though, but your progress will slow down. This doesn't mean you're getting worse, just that bouldering is not a linear progression. V6 isn't x points of difficulty more than V5 which is x points of difficulty more than a V4. Have fun with your climbing, push yourself as hard as you can, don't worry about the numbers. You might find that you'll be stuck for 3 years at V5 even though you've certainly gotten stronger, or you could have a year where you jump up from V6 to V8, in the end the grades don't mean that much, you know how hard you climb, you know how much you've progressed compared to where you were. That's the only scale that matters.

This is the proper way to bring back a dead thread. Props to you!


bigbear11


Aug 26, 2013, 8:21 AM
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Re: [jb2100] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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was reading through this site and couldn't believe the people saying they were sending v7's after a few months of climbing. That is crazy in my head. Glad to see you come back and update your original thoughts after some more experience.

Lots of good comments on this thread, something I agree with is sometimes a problem is easy for one climber based on geometry and strength of particular climber then more difficult for another. My good buddy and I boulder in the same difficulty zone generally but there are lots of problems that he sends 1st or 2nd try that might take me half a day and a very creative maneuver to finally hit the move and visa versa.

Love the gym but real rock is where it is at.


Gravitron5000


Sep 3, 2013, 11:45 AM
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Re: [curt] Bouldering Difficulty Progression [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
swoopee wrote:
lithiummetalman wrote:
This is what you need to do.

1. Get a crashpad
2. A beanie
3. A vehicle
4. Some buddies, g/f, dog, cat, chinchilla
5. Beer
6. Ramen
7. Roadtrip

Go to Bishop, Hueco, JT, etc

Climb hard, have fun, make good times.

Come back and report your progress!

I have all but number 4. People and animals hate me. Can I still boulder? Unsure

Yes, but with nobody to spot you, be sure to wear a helment.

Curt

A beanie is a bouldering helmet, so you should be good.

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