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Cruzberg
Sep 10, 2013, 11:39 PM
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I was wondering if this was common practice. So far I've seen people using chain reactors and slings with knots in them, but as far as I know it should be safe to build an extended rappel by clipping your belay device and biner into one of the pockets of a daisy chain, right?
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csproul
Sep 11, 2013, 12:08 AM
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Cruzberg wrote: I was wondering if this was common practice. So far I've seen people using chain reactors and slings with knots in them, but as far as I know it should be safe to build an extended rappel by clipping your belay device and biner into one of the pockets of a daisy chain, right?
I do it when aid climbing.
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xtrmecat
Sep 18, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Answer. No, it is not a common practice. Answer No, it is not safe. Now I will explain.
A daisy is mostly for support on an aid climb, and even gets used for the security of not losing gear during the aiding process. It has absolutely no place on a free climb. It was never intended to be anyones sole attachment to the planet! Ever!
This is a beginners forum so I will keep the answer as such. I have had a need to extend a belay device, but I have been at this game awhile, and practice all forms and disciplines of climbing. I see no real reason a beginner would need to extend a rap. The default is always to keep it simple. Change can be made only when you know the answer to the question "is this OK' without having to ask it, especially on line.
My comment on keeping it simple is many fold, so I will touch on just a couple of these. There is a huge variety of ways to do things, and equally as many different products out there that confusion about what you can do with a certain piece of gear will most likely depend on who made it, what generation of gear, and what specifically you are trying to accomplish. Example being a daisy, there are many manufacturers, and three basic styles, plus home tied. Can you clip a pocket with your device and rap, sure. Can you die while doing so, absolutely. Is it an adjustable, a conventional, a PAS, A hand tied? Who makes it will depend on how much it will do, and hold. Do you know how to clip a pocket? Or will you become a fatality statistic by clipping it through two pockets and then blow a tack or three? Default answer to all of the above is Don't do it. There is no shortcut.
Daisy Chains are never ever intended to be your sole attachment to the planet, not even for a moment. None of them. Ever. Not even while on a huge ledge.
Burly Bob
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Cruzberg
Sep 18, 2013, 11:43 PM
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Interesting. I've taken a number of classes on climbing and anchor building, and we typically will use the daisy as edge protection (i.e. wrap a tree or whatever with webbing and then biner into it with a girth hitched daisy) when setting up anchors, and while getting on rappel. Is this dangerous then?
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rocknice2
Sep 19, 2013, 1:42 AM
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The daisy when clipped as a full runner is strong but the pockets are not that strong. It's also possible to clip it in a way that you're only attached by the threads of the pockets and not the sling it self. So if you're only going to clip the full lenght you may as well use a normal sling. Nylon sling with a knot or a PAS is the way to go.
Short answer is that it's a crappy tool for the job. Its great for aid climbing.
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xtrmecat
Sep 19, 2013, 6:18 PM
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Interesting that a class teaching technique uses a totally inappropriate piece of gear. Makes me wonder about the integrity of the whole seminar.
When you get a chance, read the literature(instructions) that come with a daisy, it is in there.
Burly Bob
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socalclimber
Sep 20, 2013, 2:34 AM
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Burly Bob is 100% on the money. Daisy Chains are for aid climbing. Keep it that way. There is no reason you cannot use a sling to extend your belay device for rappels.
I am also surprised that someone was taught this in a class. I'm a guide and I wouldn't in my wildest dreams teach this. Somebody (the guide) doesn't know what they are doing if they are teaching this technique.
Learn to use the basic tools of the trade, slings, a small amount of cord etc. You do not need daisy chains in free climbing. Anyone telling you otherwise is full of shit.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 20, 2013, 2:52 AM)
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rangerrob
Sep 20, 2013, 3:01 AM
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This is a two part question. First the daisy chain in a rappel setting. Second is the extended rappel theory. I would not use a daisy chain to extend my rappel, for the reasons mentioned above. I use an extended nylon runner. But I think extending the rappel is the best way for beginners to learn how to rappel. For one the back up is a prussik below which when weighted is easy to unweight and continue your rappel. Secondly it is way easier to control your descent when the rappel is extended. I always teach beginners to extend their rappel. It is The standard as far as I am concerned.
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socalclimber
Sep 20, 2013, 3:47 AM
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I absolutely agree with you. I use the runner extension method all the time with clients when we have to rap off a route. I extend their device, set them up for rap, and then I rap. Once I'm on the ground I can give them a firemans belay.
The only time I do not do this is when I think they are not up to the task of removing themselves from the anchor.
As a general rule, I know this long before I even take them on a route that requires a rap. At worst case I can always lower them.
Good point.
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2013, 4:51 AM
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If you do extend your rap device, be careful not to get your hair, or anything else, caught up in it.
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jacques
Sep 22, 2013, 1:28 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: Interesting that a class teaching technique uses a totally inappropriate piece of gear. Makes me wonder about the integrity of the whole seminar. When you get a chance, read the literature(instructions) that come with a daisy, it is in there.
Totally agree with you. Nothing less than the first level of information, right true the company.
As far as the extend rappel, that I used to lower my haul bag, I saw two more places where you can make a mistake. With the rappel device, you clip the figure eight, the good device to rapp, to the belay loop with a biner. In an extend rappel, you clip a sling and after you clip the sling to a device...than you clip the rope,
As xtrmecat cat state, it is inappropriate. The other point is the reason to use that kind of setting. As you know how the mind work, you know that in an extreme moment of stress, like a thunderstorm in a mountain, the people are going to do what they learn first. Unfortunately, the chance to make a mistake with an extend belay is lot more important than directly. the time to set the device and be ready to go are also longer and they still have to learn to use the device alone.
I think that the only use of rappelling of the device it is because it is easier for the guide. Teaching how to rap in a rain storm is some thing that will be very useful as rap, except from a sport route, is often use to escape a route in bad weather or dangerous situation.
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socalclimber
Sep 22, 2013, 9:22 AM
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I saw a friend get his device caught hair caught in his device. He had long hair and I suggested he put it in shirt or something. He said "naw, it'll be fine".
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majid_sabet
Sep 23, 2013, 12:33 AM
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when extending rap device above belay loop, you also have to be careful with not creating rope to daisy contact. ropes need to enter and exit rap device very freely and running rope over any nylon in long rap can damage and burn webbing and daisy so keep that in mind.
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